debbi821 10 Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 If a committee votes unanimously on a new policy and then someone complains to the CC, does the CC have the right to over turn the vote without notifying the committee or without another vote? Link to post Share on other sites
scoutldr 732 Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Committees are free to function in any manner they choose, if in agreement with the Chartered Organization. There are no rules to my knowledge at the BSA National level. If someone is not satisfied with how the Committee is functioning, they should take it up with the Chartered Organization Representative (COR). In my experience, most Committees function by consensus. Link to post Share on other sites
qwazse 4349 Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Depends on who that someone is, if the new policy violated a more important policy (the CO's, your council's, or local, state, or federal law ... it happens), and how urgent it was that the thing be reconciled. Generally it's a good idea for the CC to get word to the committee as to why he/she needed to address the complaint in a way that was contrary to a recent vote. Otherwise slighted members will shoot off phone-calls, E-mails, and blog posts to anyone who'll listen. Link to post Share on other sites
debbi821 10 Posted February 2, 2015 Author Share Posted February 2, 2015 Our committee usually does function on consensus. However, twice recently, we have had a consensus on a new policy. Once the ASM or SM hear about it (they never attend committee meetings), one will throw a temper tantrum and complain to the CC. At this point, the CC will disregard the new policy. In this instance it is about medical forms and who has to turn them in annually. Some adults in our troop don't want to fill them out and have their information known. So, the CC has decided that only scouts need to do them. I am a follow the rules kind of person (as well as the person who collects and keeps medical forms) and this does not sit well with me. COR won't do anything, he likes the CC. District and Council don't feel forms have to be turned in unless it is a District Event. Link to post Share on other sites
LVAllen 46 Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 I'm a little confused. What sort of policy are the adults "voting" on? Health and Safety? Covered by the BSA. Advancement procedures? See the Guide to Advancement. Volunteer recruitment? Approved by the Committee chair and COR, not the committee. See, committees are support groups, and there really shouldn't be much voting going on. Unit committees figure out how to support the program created by the PLC. They come to a consensus. They aren't rule-making bodies. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
jr56 92 Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 In the case you referred to, health forms policy is set by National. Your individual troop can decide to exceed those standards if the choose, but they must meet the minimum. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
LVAllen 46 Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 In this instance it is about medical forms and who has to turn them in annually. Some adults in our troop don't want to fill them out and have their information known. So' date=' the CC has decided that only scouts need to do them.[/quote'] If they don't provide an Annual Health and Medical Record (Part A/B), the adult can't go on the tour / camping trip. Simple as that. It isn't a matter of what the committee thinks is acceptable. It's a basic, fundamental aspect of safety - the record contains the information an emergency medical provider needs immediately, even when the patient may not be conscious to provide it. Scouts are not the only ones who get injured. Be prepared. It's perfectly fine not to provide the record if the adult is never going to go on a tour - say, he/she is a member of the advancement committee who only wants to do data entry. Not much fun, but it takes all kinds. If the adult is accompanying the boys to camp, they need Part C. No exceptions. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Twocubdad 665 Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 If the SM and ASMs are throwing a tantrum, then you really didn't have a consensus. No, the SM/ASMs aren't members of the committee. But they are generally the ones carrying out the policy and in a volunteer organization you best have them on board. But the bigger problem is the committee is voting on policy in the first place. That's not the proper role of a troop committee. Troop committees are neither legislative bodies nor democracies. Troop committees are simply a clearinghouse for different folks who have different roles in the troop organization to come together, report and coordinate their work. There is nothing to vote on. About a year ago we had a situation where we felt we were being abused by a family with their requests for financial assistance. (I won't go into the details of why we felt that way.) The treasurer brought it up to the CC who brought it up with me (SM). A spoke with one of my ASMs who had first hand information regarding the situation. We also involved the membership chairman, mostly because she was in the room and also because it somewhat related to her job. After a discussion, we agreed to amend the troop's policy on financial aid with a couple very basic requirements. The five of us agreed to the changes and the CC wrote it up. That was it. The five people who had responsibility or a reason to be involved were, and agreed to the change. No reason to involve the advancement chairman, the training chairman, the guy who manages TroopMaster, or the handful of parents who attend committee meetings but don't do a whole lot. Link to post Share on other sites
qwazse 4349 Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 In general, and it sounds like in this case, go with what the SM wants. (He's probably gonna be the one totin' that binder.) My opinion? If an adult wants to keep his med form in his pack for troop outings, it's on him to let you know where it is in case of emergencies. But, by way of improving your procedure ... it sounds like you all have to make sure you close the communication loop with whatever policy you want to decide on. So, if the SM's not in the room and you can't give him a call. Write down your motion(s), get feedback from him and the ASM's, then vote at the next meeting. If it sounds like you haven't got sufficient feedback or the person who would have to implement your policy doesn't like it, keep tabling the vote. Bottom line (and big time-saving hint): Don't vote on new policies without input from the boots on the ground! Link to post Share on other sites
debbi821 10 Posted February 2, 2015 Author Share Posted February 2, 2015 Thank you all. This helps me understand a little better. So, from there, how do I make the understand medical forms are a national policy and we have to follow it? As I said above, I would not have the support of the COR, District or Council... I am honestly at my breaking point and ready to quit my voluntary position. Do you have any idea how many hours it takes to make sure all med forms are on file and filled out correctly (we have a troop of 90 boys) every month for campouts? Especially when you don't get the roster until 2-5 days before the actual campout? And, there are always new people going on campouts, so that means contacting a person to ask them to fill out the form... I want this to be a "before we recharter, you must turn in your medical forms" This way it is a 1 time thing and it follows the BSA policy that states: Q. Who needs to complete an Annual Health and Medical Record? A. For any and all Scouting activities, all participants must complete Part A and Part B. "All participants" includes parents, guardians, siblings, youth, staff, and unit leaders. Though Part C is only required for participation in events lasting longer than 72 hours, all BSA participants are encouraged to complete this Pre-Participation Physical during an annual physical performed by a medical professional. Link to post Share on other sites
NJCubScouter 1389 Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 I think scoutldr has it right. I have seen a lot of opinions in this forum over the years about how decisions should be made by a unit committee, but the BSA leaves it up to the unit. There is nothing I am aware of in official BSA literature that says the committee takes votes, but nothing that says it doesn't. So units are left to operate in their own way. The ultimate "decider" is the CO, which can remove the committee members, CC, SM's, etc. The district and council generally don't care unless it affects them. So the practical reality is that if a CC acts like an autocrat and the COR/IH will back them up, each individual committee member who is upset by a decision (or multiple decisions), and can't get it changed, has to decide whether to continue to participate. Recently our troop committee had several members "vote with their feet", and while they did not make a big deal about the reason, it was clearly not just a coincidence. Link to post Share on other sites
Twocubdad 665 Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 That being the case, you should have resigned yesterday. If you are responsible for maintaining the medical records and they are essentially telling you to violate national policy -- and a rather important, black-letter policy at that -- I'd have no part of it. Whether they change things or not really isn't your problem. Put your resignation in writing and send a copy to every parent in the troop, the COR, the institutional head and the Scout Executive. While they aren't putting the youth at direct risk, they are putting the youth in the position of having one of their adult leaders croak while on a campout. It happens. We came close. One of my ASMs went in for his camp physical a few years back and came home with two coronary stents. He could have easily died at camp had he not gone in for his required physical. How do these guys get into summer camp? Link to post Share on other sites
scoutldr 732 Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 If the OP had outlined the WHOLE issue in the first post, my answer would have been more complete. Health and safety rules of the BSA are not negotiable by the committee, whether by vote or by consensus. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
NJCubScouter 1389 Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 If the OP had outlined the WHOLE issue in the first post' date=' my answer would have been more complete. Health and safety rules of the BSA are not negotiable by the committee, whether by vote or by consensus.[/quote'] I agree with Scoutldr once again. This thread started out being about how decisions are made in a troop committee, and that is what I was commenting on. It goes without saying (or at least it should) that regardless of how a committee makes decisions, it can only make decisions it is allowed to make. Link to post Share on other sites
qwazse 4349 Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 You all had your heart in the right place, but ... If this is about medical records for adults, it's always a negotiation. The "rules are rules" stump speech just isn't gonna fly. For weekend campouts, give the SM/ASM some blank forms, with a list of who (to your knowledge) hasn't updated them since summer camp. It's on him to hand them to the adults to fill out during coffee break, and on the adults to let the designated leader now where they'll be kept (with the troop, or with their personal gear). Literally, the adults with concerns can make their own "where to find" roster and turn that piece of paper to the SM when they bring him his coffee. If an updated form never makes it back to you, that person stays on your list and it's on him to fill it out all over again (or let the SM's know where they can find it in an emergency). Don't make this your month-to-month problem. You don't have to phone every new adult who pops up on a weekend's roster. Rechartering is enough of a nightmare, I would not add med form's to the task. Only go over everyone's forms before summer camp and/or high adventures. Link to post Share on other sites
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