How to scout a new troop ?

[King Ding Dong 540]

Pros: The calendar sounds like fun. Very active. Must be a lot better than what you had. Having a lot of adults volunteering can be a good thing. Having older scouts teach the skills is good. The comment about the SM restricting the adults.

 

Cons: SM picking patrols (I used to do that, now the scouts handle it). Not allowing 300' because of safety concerns (i.e., do the adults trust the scouts? Train, trust, lead?) Suspecting the generals surround the monthly plc and coach (are the scouts deciding anything at the PLC?) The meeting of bringing in 3 patrol boxes for 40 scouts sounds boring (no hands on). No wonder only 40 out of 90 showed up. So what are the other meetings like?

 

Maybes: With 90 scouts there is sure to be a few that are exceptional in front of a crowd. I'd watch the patrol leaders. What are the patrol activities and what do they do at the one meeting a month that's a patrol meeting? If it's only advancement: con, if it's a mix chosen by the PL: pro. If the uniforms are the biggest issue and the PLs don't lead, that's a con to me. With 90 scouts how many go on high adventure trips? Many trips have limits of a dozen people, they would need 3 per year. Do they have high adventure trips every year? How do the patrols function on the campouts? How was your son treated when he visited? Ignored:con, welcomed: pro.

 

The real question - are the patrol leaders leading or are they glorified secretaries? If they are leading, it sounds like a great troop. If not, it's still doing a lot.

Thanks Matt.

 

Yeah in the end that meeting was rather boring. The whole thing was in that one room. To a large degree a lecture with q&a. Will want to see another meeting. The chuck boxes was only 5-10 minutes, though. That could indicate they are to focused on cubical skills. Will want to check out a PLC meeting as well.

 

One Scouter said they just had elections, so the PLs do not have much responsibility right now and that is a focus of their efforts right currently. Hell honesty is good and they know what needs improvement.

 

They did Canada this summer and SeaBase next summer. Had at least some go to Jambo. My troop does HA each summer even if it is only 2 or 3 scouts and combine with another contingent.

 

Another high profile troop with several district staffers is one a cousin was in years ago. But no summer weekend trips or meetings and seem to do a lot of bus trips to Chicago or DC. They seem to like visiting buildings and landmarks. and that is all likely expensive. In a write up on the website they was a comment " ...then we all climbed back into the Greyhound type bus like we usually do." Though they did a trip to Yellowstone for summer camp a year or two ago.

 

My son seemed very welcomed and gently guided on where to stand, lineup etc. He knew one scout from middle school, a plus. There certainly was no chaos as in my troop. They all seemed very well disciplined. That could certainly be seen as a negative as well. I don't think there was much need for signs up. Hmmm, were they really having fun ?

 

How often do most troops have a PLC meeting ? Other than calendar planning I am unaware of any in my troop.

[Basementdweller 608]

Pros: The calendar sounds like fun. Very active. Must be a lot better than what you had. Having a lot of adults volunteering can be a good thing. Having older scouts teach the skills is good. The comment about the SM restricting the adults.

 

Cons: SM picking patrols (I used to do that, now the scouts handle it). Not allowing 300' because of safety concerns (i.e., do the adults trust the scouts? Train, trust, lead?) Suspecting the generals surround the monthly plc and coach (are the scouts deciding anything at the PLC?) The meeting of bringing in 3 patrol boxes for 40 scouts sounds boring (no hands on). No wonder only 40 out of 90 showed up. So what are the other meetings like?

 

Maybes: With 90 scouts there is sure to be a few that are exceptional in front of a crowd. I'd watch the patrol leaders. What are the patrol activities and what do they do at the one meeting a month that's a patrol meeting? If it's only advancement: con, if it's a mix chosen by the PL: pro. If the uniforms are the biggest issue and the PLs don't lead, that's a con to me. With 90 scouts how many go on high adventure trips? Many trips have limits of a dozen people, they would need 3 per year. Do they have high adventure trips every year? How do the patrols function on the campouts? How was your son treated when he visited? Ignored:con, welcomed: pro.

 

The real question - are the patrol leaders leading or are they glorified secretaries? If they are leading, it sounds like a great troop. If not, it's still doing a lot.

Our PLC has short meetings weekly and one the first meeting night of the month.

[King Ding Dong 540]

I am not a "switcher" in most areas of life, and probably would not be in this one.

 

Instead of WB, I'd look for Powderhorn, but that's just me. And, maybe it's because I took WB but not PH ... yet.

 

But, any boy with an opportunity to camp with another troop is in a win-win situation. He gets to learn how other patrols do things and maybe that will inform on what he expects from his patrol (whichever one that winds up being).

 

FWIW, our IH's boy goes to a different troop and is doing well there.

I am sticking with the Pack for my younger son even though we are having parental involvement issues. A full on strong Cub program just doesn't seem as important to me now. Better he sticks with his classmates.

 

I really feel if he stays with his current troop he will be cheated out of so much of what Scouting has to offer. Sure he will get his Eagle by 14, no problem, but at what cost ? If he was really good friends with any of the other boys I might think differently. It's more the relationships I have built that is holding me back. It is not about me. If we went with this one troop they would likely have little use for me other than as a driver, I have the bug and not sure I want to give it up.

[Eagle92 110]

Well KDD, we are both in the same boat; helping our sons decide on a troop. Mine crosses over in 2 months. Been to 2 meeting and 2 camp outs with 4 different units. All he knows is that 1 unit, the unit that I originally hoped he would join until leadership changes occurred and parents took over, creating a 'high speed, low drag" troop, is out of the question now. SHMBO told me I was to tell him in no uncertain terms that he is not to consider the troop. And I admit I did the 'yes dear,' and merrily went on my way to be subtle in discouraging him. I should not have worried since A) he wasn't impressed at all with the troop on the campout and B) when he was told who his PL would be when he crossed over, he said "NO!"

 

He hasn't made a decision yet, and I hope he goes camping with 1 of the troops visited, if not both, and visits a troop he camped with.

 

He's looking for 2 things:

 

A troop that camps every month.

 

A troop with folks his own age and/or friends joining the troop so that he will have friends in it.

 

 

Here are some things I look for, and told him to look for.

 

1) Who's in charge, youth or adults?

 

2) Who's doing the teaching, youth or adults?

 

2a) If an adult is teaching, why is he? (one troop meeting had an adult going over backpacking skills and the area they were going to with the older Scouts since he had extensive backpacking expereince and did that section of the AT already. I thought it was reasonable)

 

3) How often do they camp and/or hike?

 

4) How did he feel about the group,i.e. accepted, tolerated, had fun etc?

 

Some things I'm interested in are

 

5) How much does the program cost?

 

6) What fundraising opportunities do they have for the boys to earn their way?

 

7) Do they meet year round?

 

8) Do they go to summer camp?

 

8a) If they don't go why? (one troop every three years or so does a HA trip: Philmont, AT, etc, and won't go to summer camp as a troop, but will send Scouts as provisional who want to go.)

 

9) And a very important one for me , what do they think of new parents serving on the troop committee and will you let committee members go camping?

[King Ding Dong 540]

Well KDD, we are both in the same boat; helping our sons decide on a troop. Mine crosses over in 2 months. Been to 2 meeting and 2 camp outs with 4 different units. All he knows is that 1 unit, the unit that I originally hoped he would join until leadership changes occurred and parents took over, creating a 'high speed, low drag" troop, is out of the question now. SHMBO told me I was to tell him in no uncertain terms that he is not to consider the troop. And I admit I did the 'yes dear,' and merrily went on my way to be subtle in discouraging him. I should not have worried since A) he wasn't impressed at all with the troop on the campout and B) when he was told who his PL would be when he crossed over, he said "NO!"

 

He hasn't made a decision yet, and I hope he goes camping with 1 of the troops visited, if not both, and visits a troop he camped with.

 

He's looking for 2 things:

 

A troop that camps every month.

 

A troop with folks his own age and/or friends joining the troop so that he will have friends in it.

 

 

Here are some things I look for, and told him to look for.

 

1) Who's in charge, youth or adults?

 

2) Who's doing the teaching, youth or adults?

 

2a) If an adult is teaching, why is he? (one troop meeting had an adult going over backpacking skills and the area they were going to with the older Scouts since he had extensive backpacking expereince and did that section of the AT already. I thought it was reasonable)

 

3) How often do they camp and/or hike?

 

4) How did he feel about the group,i.e. accepted, tolerated, had fun etc?

 

Some things I'm interested in are

 

5) How much does the program cost?

 

6) What fundraising opportunities do they have for the boys to earn their way?

 

7) Do they meet year round?

 

8) Do they go to summer camp?

 

8a) If they don't go why? (one troop every three years or so does a HA trip: Philmont, AT, etc, and won't go to summer camp as a troop, but will send Scouts as provisional who want to go.)

 

9) And a very important one for me , what do they think of new parents serving on the troop committee and will you let committee members go camping?

No summer camp as a troop would be a no go for me. Not sure what I think of HA, but once every three years seems a little slim. Everybody has their own thing, but the concept of carrying a canoe is just foreign to me. Do you push your car for fun ? Besides every time I get out of a canoe I spill my beer and pollute the river.

 

I like going on the campouts and observing from a distance and helping when needed. With this big troop I don't think I would have much to offer, at least without some beads. Then again I could use that time for family activities/camping and let him have his own time away from me for real independence.

 

It would be neat to find that troop that sends patrols out by themselves for at least a day hike or a patrol like BD's that hang out together. In the culture of the burbs I may not find it.

 

What I just don't understand is why these troops/patrols are not extremely active in the summer outside out council camps. Sure its hot and muggy here but they really have the time to tackle something like the Cycling MB and rack up major time/distance for the NOAs. The demands of homework and school clubs don't leave much time for that kind of thing during the school year.

[Scouter99 265]

KDD,

 

 

No adult voices until announcements at the end? That is impressive.

 

 

"Most boys had collars folded under, with neckers" is a small but good thing.

 

 

Older Scouts is usually a good sign.

 

 

As for a unit of 90 Scouts, Baden-Powell limited Troops to 32 Scouts, but that was when all 32 loved Scouting. The advantage of 90 Scouts is that perhaps 30-45 are potentially competent enough in the backwoods to allow ad hoc backpacking Patrols (without adults during the day), and 300 foot Patrols at night (when away from the rest of the Troop).

 

 

"No 300', citing safety issues" and "Run TLT one day twice a year" is redundant!

 

 

You can not replace Patrol Leaders every six months and camp safely without Bruce Tuckman helicopters (hence "20 have WB" and you "Recognized at least 3 of the leaders on District Training Staff.")

 

 

I'm not familiar with your current situation.

I recently found that quote by accident, and I like the reasoning behind the number: "The numbers in a Troop should preferably not exceed thirty two. I suggest this number because in training boys myself I have found that sixteen was about as many I could deal with - in getting at and bringing out the individual character in each. I allow for other people being twice as capable as myself and hence the total of thirty-two." (Aids to Scoutmasterhip)

In the context that the quote was used, the author asks a pointed question that really got a chuckle out of me: "Please explain to your troop leader that running a troop of 60 members means that you think you are four times as capable as the Founder!" (http://www.scout.org/information_events/resource_centre/the_leader_s_questions/the_patrol_system)

Well, well.

 

And so it follows that the leadership of the troop KDD visited must think he is more than 5 times more talented than Baden-Powell.

[MattR 2660]

Pros: The calendar sounds like fun. Very active. Must be a lot better than what you had. Having a lot of adults volunteering can be a good thing. Having older scouts teach the skills is good. The comment about the SM restricting the adults.

 

Cons: SM picking patrols (I used to do that, now the scouts handle it). Not allowing 300' because of safety concerns (i.e., do the adults trust the scouts? Train, trust, lead?) Suspecting the generals surround the monthly plc and coach (are the scouts deciding anything at the PLC?) The meeting of bringing in 3 patrol boxes for 40 scouts sounds boring (no hands on). No wonder only 40 out of 90 showed up. So what are the other meetings like?

 

Maybes: With 90 scouts there is sure to be a few that are exceptional in front of a crowd. I'd watch the patrol leaders. What are the patrol activities and what do they do at the one meeting a month that's a patrol meeting? If it's only advancement: con, if it's a mix chosen by the PL: pro. If the uniforms are the biggest issue and the PLs don't lead, that's a con to me. With 90 scouts how many go on high adventure trips? Many trips have limits of a dozen people, they would need 3 per year. Do they have high adventure trips every year? How do the patrols function on the campouts? How was your son treated when he visited? Ignored:con, welcomed: pro.

 

The real question - are the patrol leaders leading or are they glorified secretaries? If they are leading, it sounds like a great troop. If not, it's still doing a lot.

My plc has a meeting after every campout, so roughly once a month.

 

A couple of years ago it dawned on me that while the committee was meeting for an hour or two once a month, the plc was getting everything done in 20 minutes a month. So I decided the scouts weren't doing much leading. They certainly weren't making many decisions.

[JoeBob 606]

Don't forget your second son. He almost certainly will follow his big brother.

 

I'm getting a little bit too much of 'what Dad wants in a troop' from your responses. It's hard not to impose your will on your son's selection, but you need to do everything you can to make it HIS choice.

 

I pushed like heck to get my son to visit other troops. Nope. He was going with his friends, period.

[Eagledad 2779]

When someone jumps up and says let their sons pick the troop, I like to tell about the crossover ceremony where I asked the Webelos why they chose to join this particular troop. They said it had the best game of the troops they visited. None of them were in scouts a year later. Sadly the forum isn't what it used to be because this question always brought out some good advise for parents needing reasonable answers. Many posters now seem more expressive of personal prejudice like 300 ft, and no wood badge adults instead of looking at who runs meetings, asking the SM his goals for the scouts and what they think is boy run. While many on this forum kind of know what 300 seperation rule really represents, nobody outside the forum does and they will think of you a clueless geek for asking. Truth is many here on the forum these days are a bit extreme in their opinions, so they don't help much in real life situations. KDD, may I suggest learning from forum contributors who give more grounded advise that is closer to your local programs like MattR and Eagle92. Scouters in the real world don't know what 300 ft means and it's ok to work as a team with your son to help him find a good troop. Let your son hang with a patrol For a meeting while you pepper the SM with questions of program. Then compare notes and see where that goes. I remember one mom who brought her son four times before choosing our troop. It took her that long to see why our program worked for her son. So there is no huge hurry. Barry

[JoeBob 606]

When someone jumps up and says let their sons pick the troop, I like to tell about the crossover ceremony where I asked the Webelos why they chose to join this particular troop. They said it had the best game of the troops they visited. None of them were in scouts a year later. Sadly the forum isn't what it used to be because this question always brought out some good advise for parents needing reasonable answers. Many posters now seem more expressive of personal prejudice like 300 ft, and no wood badge adults instead of looking at who runs meetings, asking the SM his goals for the scouts and what they think is boy run. While many on this forum kind of know what 300 seperation rule really represents, nobody outside the forum does and they will think of you a clueless geek for asking. Truth is many here on the forum these days are a bit extreme in their opinions, so they don't help much in real life situations. KDD, may I suggest learning from forum contributors who give more grounded advise that is closer to your local programs like MattR and Eagle92. Scouters in the real world don't know what 300 ft means and it's ok to work as a team with your son to help him find a good troop. Let your son hang with a patrol For a meeting while you pepper the SM with questions of program. Then compare notes and see where that goes. I remember one mom who brought her son four times before choosing our troop. It took her that long to see why our program worked for her son. So there is no huge hurry. Barry

Barry has valid points about youth not noticing some of the big picture when they're visiting a bunch of loud strangers.

 

I want you to realize that your son may get more out of a troop that does not fit your ideals. A large troop that offers lots of places for a boy to hang out under the radar for a while, until he makes some new friends, might be best for someone new to the community.

A small intensely boy-led troop may bring more pressure than he wants at first.

 

Just be sure that the questions you ask him are neutral. Our sons want to please their fathers, and he'll pick up on any slant to your conversation.

 

I don't want you on the board a year from now telling us that he dropped out of the troop that you picked for him...

[King Ding Dong 540]

Don't forget your second son. He almost certainly will follow his big brother.

 

I'm getting a little bit too much of 'what Dad wants in a troop' from your responses. It's hard not to impose your will on your son's selection, but you need to do everything you can to make it HIS choice.

 

I pushed like heck to get my son to visit other troops. Nope. He was going with his friends, period.

I hear you JoeBob and if he wants to stay where he is that is fine. But he needs to know what the alternatives are and where I see our troop headed. Several of the key players are moving on at the end of the year and unless the parents of the new crossovers really step up there are going to be big problems. There is no obvious SM replacement and once the ACs son gets his Eagle the AC is done. There are no ASMs. The CC is doing her job but is burning, and one of her sons dropped and the other seems rather indifferent to the whole thing. These are issue he is not aware of or should he be at this point.

 

There are only 5 camping nights on the schedule this fall and one night is that hotel room in a cave we already discussed. He will likely only get in one night on the backpacking outing because he is the only one not backpacking. (We hashed that out in the Tune-up thread). There are six camping nights in the spring and a cabin weekend. No day hikes or other activities scheduled. Oh and I just found out the committee bungled the summer camp lottery, so we will have to pick the dregs after the whole council gets their shot. Unforgivable.

 

Our good friend BD has been screaming at me for a while to find a new troop. I am finally getting off the pot.

 

Second son is a Bear, loves camping but is ready to leave after breakfast. 3 mile hike is about his limit. Guess it's the age, he bores quickly. A lot can happen in two years. He is the more social one so what his friends do will have a big impact.

[Basementdweller 608]

Both patrols are working the council halloween gig this weekend. They are in different camp sites quite by accident.... So 300 feet it is. I am going to try to bunk in one of the lodges.

 

I will add that I did lose a family when Dad didn't understand why I was not up front leading or teaching. SPL was struggling, I tried to explain boy lead and learning by teaching and my goal is for the boys to do 100% of the program.... the patrols broke up into the patrol meetings and then the game. He didn't say anything. Just never came back.

 

Most parents don't care about 300 feet and boy led or Patrol day hikes or campouts. Most want a very organized adult led meeting.

[King Ding Dong 540]

When someone jumps up and says let their sons pick the troop, I like to tell about the crossover ceremony where I asked the Webelos why they chose to join this particular troop. They said it had the best game of the troops they visited. None of them were in scouts a year later. Sadly the forum isn't what it used to be because this question always brought out some good advise for parents needing reasonable answers. Many posters now seem more expressive of personal prejudice like 300 ft, and no wood badge adults instead of looking at who runs meetings, asking the SM his goals for the scouts and what they think is boy run. While many on this forum kind of know what 300 seperation rule really represents, nobody outside the forum does and they will think of you a clueless geek for asking. Truth is many here on the forum these days are a bit extreme in their opinions, so they don't help much in real life situations. KDD, may I suggest learning from forum contributors who give more grounded advise that is closer to your local programs like MattR and Eagle92. Scouters in the real world don't know what 300 ft means and it's ok to work as a team with your son to help him find a good troop. Let your son hang with a patrol For a meeting while you pepper the SM with questions of program. Then compare notes and see where that goes. I remember one mom who brought her son four times before choosing our troop. It took her that long to see why our program worked for her son. So there is no huge hurry. Barry

I am really trying to get some more visits set up. Received a response back from my troop guide at IOLS and have some suggestions, she also said I should talk to our DE and I have a call into him. Also requested some suggestions from my patrol.

 

A big troop I can see getting lost in, if they act as a troop and not patrols. Certainly less opportunity for PL but he is a way off from being ready for something like that and may never be. He needs experience and modeling to see how it is done, just not much opportunity for that in a young, low activity troop. The boy signs up for every opportunity at school and the troop as long as it doesn't involve a ball or running.

[koolaidman 110]

Most parents don't care about 300 feet and boy led or Patrol day hikes or campouts. Most want a very organized adult led meeting.

 

Yuuuuuuup.

 

 

[Stosh 3452]

Most parents don't care about 300 feet and boy led or Patrol day hikes or campouts. Most want a very organized adult led meeting.

 

Yuuuuuuup.

 

Leadership development, maturity and character development are a threat to most parents. No parent want's their dear little boy to actually grow up until the day after their 18th birthday.

 

Stosh