Quartermaster

[sailingpj 18]

I was reading the previous thread and got to thinking, you guys on the Boy Scout end of things have a really nice problem. You are arguing over whether one person's achievement of Eagle is better than another person's. From what I have seen we don't have that problem in the Sea Scouts. Our problem is staying afloat, both literally and figuratively. It takes a lot of time to maintain a boat, and that time grows exponentially with the size of the boat.

 

The Sea Scout program itself is struggling to survive. Over the past couple years I have heard a few different numbers tossed out from various people. All of them are pretty close together actually. Apparently there are between 7,000 and 10,000 registered Sea Scouts in the country.

 

I mention this just to throw some perspective on the previous argument, and some other arguments that I have seen recently. Not to offend anybody, but some of the arguments are kinda ludicrous. Arguing over whether a 14 year old's achievement of Eagle is worth more or less than that of an 18 year old. Don't forget, that 14 year old may have had up to 3 1/2 years to work on that achievement. Let me tell you, that is a really long time to a 14 year old. That is more that 1/4 his total life.

 

Then that argument over whether a troop that turns out 20 eagles a year is better or worse than the troop that turns out 2. There are many many reasons for that to be.

 

In the Sea Scout between 40 and 50 people achieve Quartermaster each year. That is it for the entire country.

 

We would love to have your problem of deciding who worked harder, or whose achievement is better.

 

I am on track to finish my Quartermaster when I am 19. That will be approximately 3 1/2 years after I joined Sea Scouts. That puts it about on par with your 14 year old Eagle. Does that mean that my ship is a Quartermaster Mill? Does that mean that my mother is pushing me to get it? Because let me tell you, there could be nothing further from the truth. I work on my personal advancement on my own personal time, not on the ships time. I just joined my 4th ship (I move a lot), none of them pushed advancement at all. As for my mother, she thinks it is a waste of my time.

 

Do not forget that even if he had many people pushing him to get it done; that 14 year old Eagle had to jump through exactly the same hoops as any other Eagle Scout.

[moosetracker 132]

sailingpj - There is a difference between you & a 14 yo.. It is age and maturity. If a boy joins a troop at age 15 for the first time and works and gets his Eagle at 17 people would not point and say your parents did it for you. Because at about 14 you start maturing, most go into a rebellious stage in order to break the apron strings and will do nothing their parents tell them to. You are also better able to focus, pick up on complex subjects and skills faster and set a goal and work towards it.

 

This is not to say that there are not a few 14 yo's capable of this same feat. But, they are really very gifted and exceptional. When you have a whole troop cranking our Eagles at 12, 13 or 14, you have to wonder about the focus of their program, because it is hard to imagine that all those gifted and exceptional children just landed in that troop.

 

Maybe, it might be like my example of a troop that has all it's eagles trying to outdo the other for getting as close as possible to the 18 birthday and pulling it off at the last minute with their SM trying to get them to stop playing this game of dare.. Maybe some troop somewhere has all young scouts daring each other to get it earlier then the last scout, and the SM and the parents are yelling at them to cut it out, and concentrate on other aspects of the program, and find fun enjoyment and adventure in scouting, but all these scouts want to do is beat the other one to the rank of Eagle faster then the last scout. I mean, it could happen.. Couldn't it?

 

You could of joined us in our discussion.. We don't bite Sea Scouts... Honest!

[Eagle92 110]

Sailing,

I thought I read somewhere that they were fewer than 20 QMs a year.

 

I think there are several reasons why there are fewer QMs.

 

1) As you pointed out there are a lot fewer ships and Sea Scouts. Heck, when I wore my old Sea Scout uniform to promote my council's HA sea base, Pamlico Sea Base out side Washington, NC www.pamlicoseabase.org , at the national parade in DC, people had no idea that Sea Scouts still exist. very poor promotion form national, to the point that Sea Scout leaders have to create their own recruiting videos, and there is very little, virtually nothing really, on Sea Scouting on any of national's websites.

 

2)To be honest QM is actually harder IMHO, yep you heard me HARDER, to earn than Eagle.

 

Lets look at some of the requirements just for QM that for me appear to be more challenging.

 

Attend at least 75 percent of your ships meetings and special activities for 18 months. Note: Check with your ships yeoman.

 

Much stricter definition of active for QM compared to just being on the charter for Eagle.

 

Quartermaster Cruise: Take command of a vessel with a crew of not less than four Sea Scouts for at least 40 consecutive hours, including two nights. You must delegate and supervise all duties. During the cruise complete the following: Inspect the vessel for required equipment; supervise all menu preparation; prepare the boat to get underway with a proper checklist approved by the adult leaders; anchor, dock, and maintain course by commands to the helmsman; remain underway for an extended period during darkness; and discuss appropriate nighttime running procedures. While underway, perform the following drills: man overboard, damage control, abandon ship, fire, collision, and any other drills used by your ship. During this cruise no substantial errors may be committed.

 

Or successfully complete SEAL (Sea Scout Advanced Leadership) training.

 

Now that's in addition to serving in a leadership position. How many Life scouts have actually completely planned and supervised a trip? I know that those units that do use the patrol method probably have done this, but I know of units that haven't had Life scouts do this.

 

Vessel Maintenance: Take charge of reconditioning or overhauling at least one of your ships vessels, or take charge of hauling out the principal vessel used by your ship. In either case, lay out a plan of the work to be done in advance, including an estimate of the materials, tools, cost, and time involved.

 

How many troop quartermasters actually do this?

 

Ok off the soap box.

[emb021 16]

"I thought I read somewhere that they were fewer than 20 QMs a year. "

 

I've heard for years the average was about 15 or so a year.

 

"2)To be honest QM is actually harder IMHO, yep you heard me HARDER, to earn than Eagle."

 

And that shouldn't be surprising.

 

What too many scouter don't understand, is that the awards were written to different groups of scouts.

 

The Boy Scout advancement program was written to the reading/ability level of a 13 year old.

 

The Venturing & Sea Scout program was written to the reading/ability level of about a 17 year old.

 

Which is funny when you consider the number of scouters who get bent out of shape about 13 year old Eagles and wanting them to get it around 17...

 

 

 

[sailingpj 18]

A couple things, first off I did not start off writing that post with that direction in mind. I'm not quite sure how I ended up where I did.

 

Moosetracker, I chose not to post in that thread because of how far it has gone from the original post. I said my peice there already and that is what I have to say. I try to avoid getting caught up in debate unless I have the time to actually think about the subject.

 

emb, I guess I learned something new today, on two counts. I have never actually read the requirements for Eagle, everybody just say that they are approximately equivilant.

 

That is all for now, I have more, but I am late for a chem class.

[Eagle92 110]

Sailing,

Sorry if I spun the thread in the wrong direction.

 

As to why there is an argument over Eagle and ages, here's my theory.

 

Eagle has been the epitome of the BSA for so long, that anytime there is a perceived, or actual, deterioration of advancement requirements, folks get upset. Or even the threat of Eagle being replaced as the top award even. They do not want the standards downgraded, as they want to keep them high so that Eagle still means something.

 

I'll give you an example. When it was announced that Venturing was coming about, the then director of Venturing made an announcement to approx 40+ Eagles in my PDL-1 class that the Venturing Silver Award would replace the Eagle as the BSA's highest award. Let's just say he was lucky to get out the room alive

 

When the decision to define "active" as being on the charter and having the SM talk to you once a year came about, a lot of folks, me included, were upset. It's the Scout's responsibility to maintain contact, not the SM's, SPL's, or PL's. The Scout should be making the phone calls saying "Hey I cannot make it because.... Can you tell me what is going on?"

 

The ease of getting Eagle on appeal is another matter that raises concern. Yes sometimes getting Eagle on appeal is warrented. Heck I had to threaten an appeal when the DAC wanted to deny my Eagle at the EBOR, because HE did not approve my project, but one of his predecessors from 4 years prior did (luckily the former DAC was also on the EBOR, and I bet they had a nice little discussion after I left the room for the second time). But if there is a problem that the troop leadership and committee sees, usually, but not always, there is a reason for it.

 

Another is the signing off for POR credit, even if you really didn't do squat. That's a pet peeve of mine as when you are elected by your peers, or appointed by the SPL, you have a responsibility to them and you need to do the job. And the SPL and SM are in a Catch 22 situation b/c if they mentor and advise the scout, yet he doesn't improve, they have to give him credit, but if they remove him from the POR so as to deny him credit, then they are not allowing him a chance to develop and grow. Some 'young Eagles" do have that maturity and can the job, but others cannot.

 

Another example is the removal of time requirements for the T-2-1 ranks. It is now possible for a new scout to go from Scout to First Class in as little time as a month, depending upon how active the patrol and troop is. I actually sat one one Scout's 3 BORs in one nite, after being a member of the troop for 3 months (this was when the time requirements were first removed and we didn't realize he could have 1 BOR covering all three ranks). While he successfully passed all three BORs, and fortunatley knew the skills b/c we were A) 'hiking and camping troop with summer as out busiest time of the year and B) the First Year Camper director and staff were excellent with high expectations.

 

You see a lot of us think it takes time to learn, use, and MASTER the skills.

 

Finally there is a grave concern that national may attempt to bring back the nightmare that was 1970s and urban scouting. You see bits and pieces of that with "Soccer and Scouting," the development of an "alternate field uniform" for those who don't like the BSA uniform, the one size fits all training that's been coming out, etc. Some of the older Scouters, especially Kudu and BP, lived through that, saw what a total and complete flop it was, and try to do everythgin in their power to avoid that from happening again. Green Bar Bill isn't alive anymore to save the BSA again, and there is no one at the national office to my knowledge that has his knowledge, skills, abilities, and influence to save the BSA again.

 

Ok enough ranting, gotta get back to work.

[sailingpj 18]

Well, that was a very informative post. I think I learned more there than in two months reading this forum. None of the ships I have been with have pushed for youth involvement outside the unit (not counting attending regattas), so almost everything I know about the BSA and its history is from here.

 

From what you say I can definitely see where the argument is coming from. That doesn't mean I don't think that it is still a kinda silly argument, but I can see where the worries are coming from.

[Eagle92 110]

Sailing,

One of the advantages of being the "redheaded stepchild of Scouting" is that national kinda overlooks you and doesn't really mess around with your advancement, uniforms, standards, etc. You are kinda there. national just changes your name from Sea Scouts to Sea Explorers, and back to Sea Scouts again

 

Seriously though Sea Scouts has a very big advantage in that it does have its traditions and has maintained it standards. Sure you have your non-traditional ships like mine growing up was as a result of the Career interest Exploring period, but nationally the volunteers and youth seem to be more in control, and do have an understanding traditional Sea Scouting. Sure some volunteers complain about minutia on the SeaScout.net, but compared to the changes in Sea Scouts and Boy Scouts, CDR Keene would see alot of what he did in the traditional ships still. Although I still cannot understand why they did away with the bugs and ship numbers.

[sailingpj 18]

Speaking of maintaining standards, I noticed that they changed the requirements that are on the seascout.org site. They are now different than the ones in the manual I have. I wonder if that has something to do with the new manual that has been due out for a while.

 

The requirements have been reorganized. Some are a bit harder, some are easier, some just different. One that I am glad of is moving the overhand knot from Ordinary to Apprentice. They also moved the requirement to chair a major activity to ordinary. It was an optional Able requirement before.

 

Actually, most of the requirements are somewhat harder. A couple are slightly easier, but most have been expanded. It looks like about ~50% of the requirements have been changed, and only like ~10% of those are easier.

[Eagle92 110]

Ywep the new requirements came out before the book was published. Then again, the new book has been delayed. Also the work I heard is that the volunteers and youth on the national sea scout committee worked ont he revisions.

 

 

[sailingpj 18]

Yeah, Keith Christopher came and held a Boatswains meeting at the Safety at Sea event in San Francisco last year. He asked for our thoughts on revisions to the manual, and other suggestions for what they at National could do to help us do our jobs better. At that point we were told that there was going to be an online copy of the manual, and that it was coming out in the spring. That was one year ago this weekend.

 

I think we just misunderstood which spring.

[sailingpj 18]

Now this is very new:

 

"Write a 500-word report on a marine endangered species (mammal, bird, fish, or reptile). The report should include a description of the species, its habitat, history, current population numbers, and current steps being employed to help its recovery."

[Eagle92 110]

Sailing,

The lawsuit that changed YPT standards is what caused the delay to ALL BSA publications as the YPT info in them had to be changed. I know Keith from his time in New Orleans, great guy and one that cares about the program.

[emb021 16]

As noted, the YPT issue delayed things. The new manual was supposed to come out in Aug/Sept. Now I am being told it will be out in the next 30 days or so.

 

On the Venturing side, this issue caused them to yank the Venturer Handbook off the shelves to address the lack of YPT info on them. So people aren't able to find Venturer manuals (whereas the current Sea Scout Manual is still out there. Go figure).