Crossed over with my son to a troop... and starting a crew for my daughter...

[kahits 10]

I know you will think I'm nuts to be doing this, but here goes..

 

I just finished 5 years with my son in CS, having been a den leader since he was a Tiger, and having lost our Pack leadership at the end of that first year, I essentially took over as the unofficial CM, since we never found one who was capable of doing more then hand out awards at the PM. I went to National Camp school to be Daycamp PD, in his Bear year, and finished being the offical CM for both of his Webelos years as well as Webelos DL. He just crossed over into a very old (1937), but small troop, in January, that has always been our feeder troop, but in the 6+ years of the pack, we are the first group to actually join that troop from the pack. There is another, larger neighborhood troop that my son would have gone to, because of the den chief they provided his den for the last 3 years of his program, as well as our UC who was assigned to us in that same Bear year (the DC was her idea) and was also an ASM from that troop. So, this troop has been a very good supporter for us, yet they don't have any actual feeder packs established for them, but they are higher profile (the district meets at that church) so they get Webelos from all over. For now I am one of a handful of ASM in this small troop, trying to help transition new leadership since the older troop has boys grouped in 3 ages. The oldest group is almost out the door (HS seniors), finishing up their Eagle requirements, and the next group are sophomores, and then there is the new, youngest group that will be 5 when the Webelos I den comes this December or January from the pack. I was not interested in taking on the SM position, because I knew something else was probably coming up. So, for now, I am committed to the CC position (the current CC will remain for one more year), and am working on transitioning leadership to the outgoing SM, who's son turns 18 in a few months. One of the current ASM's, whos son is in that Sophomore group and already has his Eagle, might be able to stay on, if it can be made worthwhile for his son to stay. There are 2 more dad's coming with that Webelos I den, at the end of the year, of which either is willing to take on the SM position, so there are options.

 

Okay, now for the hard part. I have a daughter (14 in July) who is 2 years older then her brother, who has gone thru all 5 years of his CS experience, and has volunteered as a den chief at the 3 day camps he went to, and has made the commitment to join Venturing as close to her 14th birthday as she possibly can. That other troop has now decided they need to start a feeder pack out of the same church, as well as a crew for some of the boys who are about to turn 18. I have volunteered to be the advisor for this new crew, knowing full well that she has been recruiting alot of her girl friends, who are ready to jump in. The recruitment is in about 3 weeks, and I'm in it now. The den chief for my son's old CS den is one of the boys who will be turning 18 in that, other, troop and will be also joining the crew. Since he has been SPL for this his last year with the troop, and with the almost 3 years I have know him, I have no doubts about his ability to help start this crew. Another Eagle scout will be joining as well (his mom is that same UC), and with their great friendship, should be a good initial driving force to get the crew up and running. What I find more then a little bit funny is I have not even had training for Boy Scouts (early April), let alone training for this challenge. I guess I could use some encouragement at this point. The woman who was my awesome UC, is going to be starting up their CS feeder pack, although I was assuming she was going to be and assistant advisor to the crew. Her son is the reason she wanted to start the crew in the first place, to keep him in scouting. I know I can count on her for help, but she will be busy with the pack startup as well. Anyway, I'm sitting here mulling over this whole situation and thought I would tell the whole story (sorry for the length) and see what kind of advice I could get from this group of Venture scouters. It's been quite an adventure for me and my son, and I guess I feel my daughter deserves to have a chance to have a similar experience with dad (which even at 13 in all it's emotion, she still apparently does). That larger troop was disappointed when we did not crossover into their troop (my DE is the one who urged me to look at the older troop, because they needed new leadership or die), but are happy to have me on board in the crew advisor role. I'm wondering if this is a conflict of interest, even though it's the only way it can work for my 2 kids, since there are no crews without going outside of the district, which I don't want her to have to do.

 

 

[emb021 16]

Hmmmm. How to begin.

 

Several of us tried to help out someone in a similiar situation. Much of the advise we gave here applies here, tho you seem to be in a slightly different situation.

 

* Get training in the Venturing Program. We can't emphasis it enought that Venturing is NOT Boy Scouting and its NOT Cub Scouting. Thus its vital to get training in what Venturing is (and isn't). Probably the WORSE Venturing leader is one who was a Boy Scout or Cub Scout leader, doesn't think they need the Venturing training, and thinks there is no real difference in the programs.

 

Take Venturing Fast Start ASAP. You can do this on-line at the National site. Or borrow the video New Crew Fast Start (AV-03V013)

 

Get Venturing Leader Specific Training in your district/council asap, even if it means driving a couple of hours to take it.

 

* Get the Venturing literature. At a minimum, get the Venturing Leader Manual and READ thru it and get the Venturer Handbook/Ranger Guidebook. Consider getting the Venturing Leadership Skills Course syllabus, Quest Handbook, and Trust Handbook. And print off some of the Fact Sheets from the National site like the ones on Powder Horn, Kodiak, etc, so you have some idea what these are.

 

* You need to work on additional leaders. If your crew is going to be a co-ed crew, you need to have both male and female adults along on trips. (they don't have to be leaders, they can be parents). And you should go thru the Venturing Leader YPT. This is separate from the YPT that cub scout and boy scout adult leaders take. It can be done on-line IF your council has made it available thru their website, otherwise you'll have to do the video version. Don't let your DE claims there is only one adult YPT course. There isn't. You want Youth Protection Guidelines: Training for Adult Venturing Leaders (AV-03V014).

 

* A Venturing Crew should be a separate entitly/identity from a troop. Don't allow yours to restrict itself to just boys from the local troop that have aged out. Boys can (and should) join at 14. If there are boys who have gotten bored with the troop, they should be welcomed into the Crew. A boy CAN earn Eagle in a Crew, so don't allow some stiff necked 'red jacket' to claim they have to stay in the troop to get it. And all the youth in the crew should be encouraged (encouraged, NOT pressured or forced) to consider earning the Venturing Awards.

 

* What is the focus on your Crew? That's an important factor. Each crew will specialize in one of the 5 areas of Venturing: Outdoor, Sports, Arts & Hobbies, Youth Ministries, and Sea Scouting (which means you would be a Sea Scout Ship). Now, if you want to be a Outdoor/High Adventure Crew, that's fine. But be sure that's what the youth in the crew want and will work toward. If so, you should go to Intro to Outdoor Leader Skills (yeah, its mainly for Boy Scout Leaders, but Venturing Leaders involved in outdoor crews who DON'T have the experience should go). And try to go to Powder Horn, too.

 

* One final comment. Please get the terminology right. There is no such thing as "Venture scouters". This is the Venturing program, not Venture or Venture Scouts. We are Venturing leaders.

 

That's all I can think of. Anyone else? Do you have further questions?

[Eamonn 61]

Hi Wallace,

Please don't take any of this the wrong way.

I really think you need to slow down.

The Troop may well be an old Troop, but if it doesn't do something about membership all it will have is a history.

DE's can be very nice people but they at times have a different agenda than the volunteers. Particularly when it comes to new units.

emb021 makes a lot of good points.

Trying to start a new unit is not easy and takes a lot of time and man power.

Please, don't start a Crew with "Names on Paper" It never ever works.

While I'm sure that you have the best intentions in the world, I however think you need to look a little further down the road than just starting a Crew for your daughter.

How many of the 18 year olds you talk about will be off to college at the end of the summer?

emb021 mentions the area that the Crew will focus on. A Venturing unit needs to have a vision and a mission, just having a place to hang out or being able to tag along with the Troop is not going to work.

From your previous postings it sounds like you were ready and excited to move into Boy Scouting. While some people make the move from the pack to the Troop very quickly, I would say it takes a couple of years to really understand the program and learn the ropes.

Venturing may sound easy. But working with Venture aged youth can be a real challenge. They have different characteristics and different needs than most Boy Scouts.

IMHO You need to sit down and give what you want to do some serious thought and make a choice.

Eamonn.

 

 

 

[John-in-KC 311]

Mr Kahits,

 

I'm going to second all that emb021 and Eamonn have told you.

 

I'll give you the same advice I gave Ms BoxyLady: Find the President of the Council Venturing Officers Association. (It'll be a youth member). Ask him or her for input and feedback). Further, find the Commissioner who specializes in Venturing in your Council. Get his/her input and feedback as well.

[kahits 10]

Thank you John and Eamonn, what you are saying is why I posted this question. I needed to hear these cautionary comments. I appreciate the comments very much, and no offense taken. I have to admit that the past 4 1/2 years with my son in CS have been tremendously challenging, and extremely difficult, to keep his pack going, just so my son could stay in the program. In that time I have met many parents, running other packs and troops and at the district level, who have dedicated much of their time to doing the same for their sons, and have learned much from their tireless sacrifice and commitment. I did talk to the District Venturing chairman at the District awards a few weeks ago, about the possibility of starting a crew, but had no idea the other troop was looking to do just that, primarily to provide a program for a group of their 18 year old Eagle scouts to continue with scouting. This same Venturing commissioner was the District Commissioner at the time that our pack was about to go under. He met with us, in a park, to give us the direction and support that we needed to keep the pack alive. It was funny when I was taking to him, he stopped mid sentence, and asked me if he had met me in a park somewhere. He offered to provide any support necessary if I pursued the creation of a crew, and I knew his experience would be very helpful when that time came. This guy has done everything, but right now Venturing is his primary focus.

 

I guess the mindset that I have when it comes to starting a crew is I know this is going to be within the embrace of a very well organized charter sponsor and troop, from the one that my son is in. I hope that is not a conflict of interest. They are a group that are highly visible in the district, and with strong adult leadership, although somewhat political. However the only way their troop committee was going to allow a crew to be organized was thru an advisor outside of their leadership (they did not want this crew to be a draw down on their troop numbers, which are lagging, hence the need for a feeder CS pack, which they don't currently have.). Currently, there are no Venture crews in this part of town or district. I agree there is a lot of knowledge to be gained thru training, and it won't be anything like Cubs or Boy Scouts, but I have the time to dedicate to this challenge, full time (thanks to my physician wife, who loves her job), and considering my daughter will only be here for 4 more years, and my son for 7, I'm willing to take it on. I won't be the SM for the troop, but will work in the committee to do what I can, but will lead to start this crew. I learned early on in the dark days of my son's pack that I could get help. In that experience I made a lot of very good connections that made the difference and in some cases, were extremely inspirational. In defense of my DE, he is the hardest working human being I have ever met, and his energy is pretty amazing. As long as the work is tied to my son or daughter pursueing a BSA program, I have to at least try. My business partner would love to see me come back to work (we are architects), but I know the time I spend in these next 4-7 years will be time I will never regret. I can always step down from any of these commitments, but I'll make sure there is good, viable leadership to take my place. I'm just going to do what I think is needed, and see where it goes. Even though the days of my acting as the CM, CC, AC, and den leader for my son's den and putting the pack meetings together for the pack are behind me, I think I have learned not to get into a situation without good backup support. I'll do what I can, with the time that I have, to be out there with my kids, and their troop/crew. Just seeing my soon to be 14 year old daughter so focused on finally being a Boy Scout (I know, venturing is not scouts...) is amazing, when I consider how otherwise difficult her teen transition has been. This is something she will not be denied. If someone else were currently able to take that Crew Advisor position, I would gladly be an assistant, but for now that is not the case. Maybe it will be in the very near future. In this situation, timing is everything, and I'll have to take what comes her way. To do otherwise would be to keep at least my daughter out of the program.

[ScoutNut 147]

I agree with everything that the others have mentioned here. However I would like to stress one thing.

 

You have just come from a VERY hands on Cub Scout experience, you have only just crossed over to a BS Troop with your son & have not yet figured out all of the new dynamics of being in a Troop & learning to let go. You have also not yet taken any Boy Scout training to help your transition.

 

You have just come from 5 years of holding a Pack together practically by yourself, so that your son "could stay in the program". You are going to a Troop that also needs rejuvenating & it sounds like you will be heavily involved in that also.

 

What you need to understand is, you can not do that with Venturing. There is good reason why they are called Crew ADVISORS & NOT Crew LEADERS. They do NOT lead - they advise. Even the Crew Committee are advisors and work with their youth counterparts.

 

You stated that - "I know this is going to be within the embrace of a very well organized charter sponsor and troop." and "the only way their troop committee was going to allow a crew to be organized was thru an advisor outside of their leadership".

 

The Troop has absolutely NOTHING to do with the Crew. It is up to the Charter Org to decide if they want to organize a Crew or not, not the Charter Org's other units. The Crew is usually organized around a specific theme, or purpose, & the youth recruited who are interested in that particular purpose. It is NOT simply co-ed Boy Scouts.

 

Once the Crew has been put in place, it is mainly up to the YOUTH MEMBERS to hold it together, not the adult advisors.

 

I have seen this happen so often in the GSUSA older girl program. The Leaders have a very hard time transitioning to a strictly Advisor role & relying on the skills the girls have learned to drive the group. The adults end up doing most of the actual leading/planning/doing & then can not understand why the girls loose interest & drop out.

 

[Eamonn 61]

Hi Wallace,

When OJ (Our only child) was little we would go to all the school functions. Open house was a nightmare, so much so that they scheduled times for when parents would come in. School plays and concerts were standing room only. Parents and Grandparents with every camera under the sun flashing away.

We still attend all the open houses and teacher conferences, but there is a heck of a lot less people there. The same kids, but sadly parents don't come. Selling tickets to the School play is like asking people to go have a root canal.

Back in my Cubmaster days we had as many as 350 people show up for the B&G banquet.

The last Eagle Scout COH I attended was very poorly attended.

At some stage it seems kids stop being cute and parents seem to lose interest.

You have seen how hard it has been in Cub Scouting to get parents to step up to the plate. Once their kids get a little older it seems that the TV shows get a lot more interesting!!

While the youth in Venturing are learning to be a lot more independent. The things that they want to do require a lot of adults.

The activities seem to be further away, which means more transportation and more drivers. A coed program requires male and female leaders. And it seems everything is more expensive (Especially in Sea Scouts!!)This means that more money has to be managed and more money has to be raised.

All this at a time when the demands on the youth are overwhelming.

Right now I have Sea Scouts who as well as the expense of being in the Ship are trying to raise money for the Prom (Candy Sales) Band members who are going to Disney in Florida( Candles). Some of the boys are going to NOAC and the Conclave.

When they were cute Mom and Dad took the popcorn form to work, now Mom and Dad are lucky if they ever see the form!!

I know that we have a good program. I also know that I have the greatest bunch of kids ever, but at times I get very frustrated because even after careful planning and great communication things fall apart. Someone gets a job, someone else signs up for indoor soccer,someone gets a new girlfriend and the list goes on.

Deep down I know that this is all part of them growing up, but I still get frustrated.

We are a new Ship -I'm an old fellow who spent his entire Scouting career as a "Dirt Scouter", I'm having to learn new skills and new ways of doing and looking at things.

While it sounds like you may have all your ducks in a row at home and at work, I can't help but thing going into new (New to you) programs and being able to switch one on and one off is just not going to work.

I would go as far as to say the reason why we have so many Crews that fail after a year is because they are started by ASM's who think that Venturing is Boy Scouting with an attitude.

The real truth is that it is Venturing.

I have a great friend who has been involved with Scouting and the OA for ever. He is looking at Venturing as being a program for older Scouts. He is wrong.

Eamonn.

 

[captainron14 11]

All of the esteemed Venturing Leaders have given great advice.

 

Venturing is a great program. But it is what the Crew wants it to be. There are no two Crews alike.

You will find Crews that have a Boy Scout Background with some boys still working on their Eagle.

Other Crews may have no Boy Scout experience at all.

Boys only, Girls only or Co Ed. all are "right".

I have seen Crews that wear the Dark Green & Gray pants uniform and I have seen one with a Aloha print shirt for a uniform (the uniform is up to the Crew).

The program is very flexible and adaptable to be a "fit" with any type of Crew.

Get trained, after a while go to Powderhorn.

Get the Crew trained, VLSC is a must. Find other Crews in the Council and talk to their leaders. Get their Crew Officers to visit with yours to help jump start the Crew Leadership.

The focus of the Crew does not have to be single minded, it is what the Crew wants it to be.

Good Luck and Venture On!

[vmpost 10]

Good advice...listen well. I have been involved in "putting a Pack back together", starting a new Troop, AND starting a new Venturing Crew. I cannot imagine doing two of them at the same time. Each is very time intensive and very psychologically intensive.

 

Not everyone shares our vision...and we need to make sure our "vision" of BSA programs is in line (not a carbon copy) of BSA intention...thus the training.

 

Heed well what was said about Crew ADVISORS. When we started the Crew, I signed on as Committee Chair. Even though the Advisor was trained, for the first five meetings I had to tell him to leave the discussion table. I asked him to come over to a different part of the room and discuss our visions and what we'd like to see. Then I talked to him about what we could hear the youth discussing. I directed the conversation to how our visions & the youth's were different and whose should prevail... IT IS DIFFERENT. IT IS FOREIGN TO MANY OF US. We are ADVISORS.

[kahits 10]

Awesome advice, guys.... I will still play a primary role in both units, and I agree, they are not at all alike. In all the years of working to keep the pack viable and moving, I never had an opportunity to delegate to other leaders. However, my basic nature is one of chosing my peers well, when I have a choice, and delegating as often as is possible. We did take our Webelos to visit a completely adult lead troop and it made the parents as well as the boys ill to see how it was being run. That was the experience that helped them to chose the troop they are now a part of. Also, in those years of hauling the water for the pack, I made sure everyone was trained, and when I got excuses, I sent the trainer to their home to get the job done. I had great cooperation from the district to get it done, and for the most part, all of our leaders were trained. Seeing all those adults running that troop like it was Cubs for big boys was difficult to watch, but I really don't see a problem letting go of that kind of control that was so very hard to wield, when I had nobody to help me. Needless to say, I don't care to do anything on a pack level, other then to invite Webelos to our troop activities, and help them recruit den chiefs for their dens. The rest is up to them now.

 

There will be complications between these two units, in terms of their potential trips, but it is my impression that boy scouts meet and go camping more often then a crew will, partially because HS aged young people have more going on in their personal lives. If at any point, there is too much that conflicts between the units, I know my first priority will be with my son's troop, and I made that clear to my DE. He, my son, will be there the longest, and it will clearly need more work to get the numbers up and to help them move thru the program. There are other leaders at the district level who are able to come in to the crew, but I offered to be that advisor, because I think I can make it work. The crew is going to be a big focus for the charter sponsor, and once the open house is offered, there will be more then enough young adults to make it viable, since this start up has been long overdue. I am at a definite disadvantage in the timing for this work and training, but have been aquiring all of the materials that are available to do what I can, between now and then. I will have the full, hands on support of the District Venturing Chair in this effort (he is the most experienced scouter in the district and a very good choice for that district position), and have no doubt that he will be there for as long as will be necessary. As I said, the district has very few crews that are viable but this particular charter sponsor will bring a lot of support to this group of young people. You could not ask for a better, more committed sponsor. The comment I made about the Troop committee having a problem with any of their troop leadership taking the advisor position is more to do with a very close relationship between their committee and the charter sponsor, since this troop has been the only unit at that church, since it was originally chartered, 25-30 years ago. This is a big step for them, but the church has been ready to go with it for years now. In my experience with the district, and my dealings with their troop, I don't get a sense this is going to be a lone endeavor, but at some point if the challenge of providing the adult support to the crew becomes more then I can provide, with my son's troop commitment, I will have no problem taking an assistant advisor role, if a more capable parent/adult is available. I want to work on the committee with his troop, which won't be any easier, but at this point I have the time. There are several of my peers who do this sort of multi unit, multi tasking in the district, and I spend a great deal of time with them, when our roles bring us together. They are the salt of the earth to start these units in areas where there is nothing to build from, and for a group of young people they are not even related to. This venture crew will be started in the heart of one of the primary charter sponsors in the district, and I can see no better opportunity for a successful new unit then there. Call me an optomist.

 

[kahits 10]

Thanks, vmpost. That is a great example of the differences between where an adult leader/advisor is coming from and where these older scouts / venturers are coming from. I know that is a big area that will take time for me to understand, let alone learn how to work with as the support. Listening to one of the ASM in my son's troop talk about where the older, HS aged boys are coming from in the troop told me alot about how different it is. That level of awareness will take time to aquire (he and his son has been there for 4+ years), and in the meantime I'm trying to convince him to remain with the troop as SM, along with his 15 year old son and Eagle scout. What you described in your crew was a good example of that difference. I know the kinds of things my daughter would like to do in venturing, but she won't be the one making those decisions, they all will. Preconceptions are hard to avoid, and we adults are no different in being tempted to run with them. When we were planning CS day camp, we could go with those very ideas, because it was all up to us. Now that I have left that world behind, I am delighted to be able to not have to make those decisions, and can just be there to help assist in whatever it is they want to pursue. I have no problem with that..... let somebody else do the talking, and learn to listen. My architectural training provides alot of that, because it's all about how you create ideas, and then make them happen. I have some great ideas of what they can do, but it's their time to come up with their own. This reminds me of my daughters science fair projects. She scores sky high in science, but really does not care for it.... I'd love to just do the project and get it over with, but no, I have to move along and see what she has come up with. It's hard to witness at times, but she gets it done, and when she does, it's all hers. It won't be any different with my son's troop or her in this new crew. It's all going to be very interesting, and I'm ready for me to be run ragged. When your time comes and people show up to tell the stories about the kind of life you lived, I hope they talk about my efforts in scouting, and not the architecture I built. We are all here because we have a son or daughter. I can't think of a better place to be spending my time. Just don't ask my wife to do any camping as a part of it.

[purcelce 11]

I'll second what my esteemed ventruing advisor peers have stated.

Remember what Emb021 said. Venturing is not co-ed boy scouts.

 

The youth run the program. Socializing is a big part of what teens want to do. Venturing is a flexible progam so go with the flow of what the crew want to do.

Most important have fun with it.

 

Cary P.

Advisor Crew 805

[kahits 10]

I can't thank you all enough for the words of wisdom. I might not have a Boy Scout mind set, but I'm looking forward to seeing what these kids can do. If I have learned anything from my daughter, she wants to make decisions for herself, and has made that very clear, in the many months since she became a teen. She has gotten her point across, and I know there is much to learn when it comes to HS aged young adults. I agreed to do what I can to start this crew up, but there are alot of adult advisors that will need to be aquired to make it viable in the long turn. Perhaps it will be helpful not to have a BS mindset, but the work will be significant, no doubt about it. I wanted to hear from all of you just how hard this is going to be, and you have come thru in describing that in great detail. Thank you again.... If I have learned anything in my young experience as a scout leader, it is how to get help, and how to recruit more leaders. None of this unit work will be easy to accomplish, but I'm not going anywhere if my kids will benefit. Be assured you will hear back from me on this commitment. As I said, I have gotten to know alot of people in this relatively small district of committed volunteers, and we all seem to be connected by our love for our young people. I am just happy to finally see my daughter having an opportunity to join the fray. As for my son, we'll see if he survives Klondike in 3 weekends from now. Thanks, again.....

 

Wallace

T3 ASM

C134 AA