An Eagle Project Proposal is as long as it is complete...

[OldGreyEagle]

So, how long are the Eagle Project Proposals in your area? As District Advancement Chair I see a huge disparity in quality of project write up. Most are done well with an average 8-10 pages, some are very detailed and some are 2 sheets long with very little detail. I get back to the 2 pagers and say we need more. I can tell the scout is frustrated when I say I need more detail, and sometimes I get frustrated as well trying to explain what is needed without telling the scout what to write

 

Maybe I am expecting too much, how many pages are the write ups in your area? Not the final, but the version that must get approved before the project can start?

[Eamonn]

I have seen some of these proposals that go to our District Advancement Committee.

Two Pages - Wow

That would be a Tome, for most of our guys.

Is there a way that they could make the book available so that the boys could complete it on line ?

A great number of the boys lack the skills that are needed to use a pen and paper to get the idea across.

While we old timers, may think this is a crying shame. It is the way it is.

[OldGreyEagle]

You can find the Eagle Project book at

 

http://usscouts.org/clipart/ScoutDoc/Eagle/eprojwbk.rtf

 

How can you answer the questions in the project book on two pages?

[evmori]

I feel the length of the write-up depends on the project. If a Scout's Eagle project is building barn owl boxes then the write up would be less than if his project was erecting a storage barn for the CO. I have seen anywhere from 2 to 20 pages.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Rooster7]

Maybe I am expecting too much, how many pages are the write ups in your area? Not the final, but the version that must get approved before the project can start?

 

In my experience, the Eagle write ups for final approval (i.e., after the project is completed) are about 10 to 20 pages long.

 

For project approval so the Scout can start, 2 to 3 pages is pretty much the standard. To be blunt I think you are expecting too much. Heres why. Initially, the project is only an idea. Its very early in the process for the boy to have a lot to say about it. They have a general idea as to what they want to do and for whom, but beyond that its difficult for them to write about it, because they haven't experienced anything yet. Furthermore, theyre looking for approval of the idea before investing a lot of time and energy in the details. I realize there is a section (which needs to completed in advance) that is entitled - Project Details. However, we do not require a lot in this section. Basically, we want approximate dates (i.e., in March or mid-March vice a specific date) and a general description as to what will be done (i.e., do inside painting vice a specific room) and by what group (again, no specific names). Once approved, then we expect the Scout to do much more legwork. Subsequently, they will have tons of details to discuss in the write up.

[OldGreyEagle]

Rooster,

After the scout has completed the project, have you ever seen a scout whose Eagle Project was rejected because it didnt turn out to be an Eagle project? Or at least not in the eyes of the committee?

 

I am torn with this process, I dont want the Eagle Project to be seen as just the 22nd merit badge, its supposed to be much more than that, but I dont want to make it unrealistic either.

 

My vision is a Leadership project that results in added value to the Sponsoring Agency, stretches the Scout's comfort zone, and is a valuable learning experience for the scout. Well, thats what I want, it's getting there that is problem. As Twocubdad is fond of saying, the devil is in the details

 

[mk9750]

Having only seen project booklets from boys in our Troop, I agree with Rooster. Much depends on the extent of the project, as Ed says, but Rooster's point about the concept of the project being what is submitted for approval is right on.

 

Like most everything else in Scouting, the Eagle project is a learning experience. I think very few boys will have the ability to conceptualize and carry out a project that is challenging enough to be acceptable before they start. That's why they do the project, to learn how. I think we as adults would agree that the more detailed the plan is, the easier the execution will be. But a Boy Scout most likely will not have this understanding on his own. Those who approve his plans aught to make sure he has enough detail to make failure unlikely, but the real value in the project is how he overcomes the obstacles along the way. Some will be problems he creates for himself by a lack of planning, others will be problems which were unforeseeable until the project commences. But it is the experience gained by working through these problems that shows evidence of the leadership skills and cements a boy's position as and Eagle candidate.

 

If I were responsible for approving plans (and I only did one time, for the Scoutmaster's son), I would make certain that his plan showed evidence of a commitment to perform a certain level of service at a predetermined level of quality. After that, whatever details the boy wants to include are for his own benefit, and I would congratulate him for his planning. But I wouldn't require any more than the above before I signed off.

 

Mark

[Rooster7]

Mark,

 

Thanks for expounding on what I was trying to say. I think we are in sync on this one.

 

OGE,

 

I understand and agree with your concern. Although, I still believe that the initail approval for starting a project shouldn't require the Scout to do a tremendous amount of writing. No, I haven't seen a boy's Eagle project rejected after its completion. Although, I'm not often in a position to testify as to whether or not one should have been. I have seen the opposite effect - That is...I have seen a boy spend a lot of time writing up the details for an Eagle project proposal, only to have it turned down for one reason or another (not related to the quality of the write up). For example, imagine a Scout writing 10 pages on a project idea, only to be told that he can't do a fund raiser. Or, be told, that project has been done too many times. Or, be told, you can't do a project that's designed to help the BSA or one of its troops. I realize that if the Scout did a little research, he should know some of these things before deciding on a project. But, still - put yourself in the Scout's shoes. Initially, all he wants to know, "Is this a good idea for a Eagle project?" I think aside from what was pointed out by Mark (i.e., verify he has the resources and commitment to do such a project), this is the main purpose of the initial approval.

[Rooster7]

OGE,

 

Or at least not in the eyes of the committee

 

Just for clarification, how does the committee come into play? For completion, the Eagle work package has a signature line for the Scout, Scoutmaster or "coach", and a representative of the benefiting organization. It seems to me, once these three signatures are obtained, it's a done deal. If the committee rejects the project after its completion (without any prompting from the BSA), I think they are stepping outside the bounds of their responsibilities. I realize this is not a merit badge, but isn't the concept for approval/award the same. If a merit badge counselor signs the blue card, then the boy gets credit for earning the badge. Likewise, if the appropriate people sign off on the Eagle project (for final approval), the boy gets credit for the project. I don't think anyone on the committee is a part of the final approval process. Anyone has more to say on this?

[OldGreyEagle]

When I said committee, I meant the Advancement Committee. The Scout needs signatures of the sponsoring agency, the Scoutmaster or Advisor or Coach and a Commitee member as well as a member of the Council or District Advancement Commitee member.

 

The Advancement Committee meets once a month to review the proposals. Its after the propsal is approved the scout moves forward. As far as whether or not the project is Eagle worthy, I thought that was the job of the Scoutmaster/Coach/Advisor and Unit Committee member. That they were to guide the scout along and help determine what ideas were good.

 

Now, I am far from a "hard guy" I think, but I have little sympathy for a scout who writes 10 pages on doing a fundraiser or a project that benefits scouting when on page 2 of the Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project Workbook 18-927B under the heading Limitations it says

 

"...Work involving Council property or other BSA activity is not permitted. The project may not be performed for a business or an individual, be of a commercial nature or be a fund raiser..."

 

This isnt "research", its on page 2 of the resource given to each Life scout. This is following the directions.

 

Now, telling a scout that a project has been done to many times is another story. Unless the project has been done so many times there is a "book" floating around that tells how to do it, or the project is so basic in concept that it requires no original thought by the scout, I dont see a problem in repeating a project, as long as the scout makes it his own.

 

Anyway, any more thoughts?

 

 

[Rooster7]

After the scout has completed the project, have you ever seen a scout whose Eagle Project was rejected because it didnt turn out to be an Eagle project? Or at least not in the eyes of the committee?

 

Sorry I misunderstood. When I read the above, you seemed to be stating that the committee might reject a project after it is completed.

 

In regard to the various reasons I stated, for which a proposed project might be rejected, I agree that the Scout should take some responsibility for knowing the requirements. Still, I have seen ideas rejected for reasons that were not always apparent. It's kind of like the teacher saying, "There's a 20 page report due in 90 days on a subject that I must approve. Give me the first 10 pages within the next week or two and I'll let you know if its worthwhile to continue." Im just saying, we should give the kid a break and let him know early without so much effort being expended.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

We had a Scout propose a Fundraiser, we said no, you cant do that, its in the book, its against the rules. Well, the scout then said, OK, what if I do a fundraiser, take the money and buy a Swingset playground equipment thingie (technical term)for the local park district and have my troop put it together. That concept got approved. Got the write-up back, seems the scout held the fundraiser, researched Playground sets and decided it took a skill level beyond what he could muster to put together and then gave the park district the funds to buy playground equipment. He was surprised when I said that was a nice thing to do, but it wasnt an Eagle project. He and his scoutmaster said it was because what happened fit in the category of "Changes to the Project".

 

Well, it changed alright, to a Fundraiser. Maybe why I want a detailed write-up.

[Rooster7]

OGE,

 

I hear you...And in that particular case, I would hope the committee could intervene in some way. What did national have to say about the project? Don't they review those things when they receive the Eagle packet? Since it became a fundraiser as opposed the project he originally described, I would think that there would be some recourse that could be taken.

 

Nevertheless, even if the kid provided a boatload of details up front, couldn't he and the Scoutmaster "justify" the project in the same manner that they did (i.e., it comes under the heading of Changes)? I'm not saying that is acceptable...I'm just saying that the details up front wouldn't necessarily stop this kind of abuse.

 

[KoreaScouter]

I think it's a foul call if the District Advancement Committee rejects a completed project after they approved the proposal. That assumes of course, that the completed project met the spirit and intent of the proposal. Even if the Advancement Committee membership changes between proposal and completion, anything approved by the previous regime should be "grandfathered" -- a tie goes to the Scout.

 

This is another great argument for not waiting until the last minute to complete Eagle requirements. In my experience, these types of shenanigans are more likely to occur under time pressure. "Hurry-up-and-get-it-done-itis" produces the 2-page proposals, project changes that always seem to result in less rather than more effort/results, and some parents and (sadly) leaders doing Machiavellian things to "pop out" another Eagle Scout.

 

Some of this is attributable to misunderstandings, too. It's the Scout's first and only Eagle project, ditto for his family, in most cases too. When one of our Life Scouts is ready to begin his project, we assign an experienced Scouter to him as a coach/advisor. This person helps keep him on track, prevents him from spinning his wheels, and helps him stay focused on a process that can be confusing.

 

KS

[OldGreyEagle]

The only reason the project was rejected was because it turned into a fundraiser which is specifically prohibited by the rules. The scout said he couldnt find equipment he thought his troop could assemble. I think that should have been researched out before the fundraiser was done.