CubsRgr8 10 Posted May 5, 2003 Share Posted May 5, 2003 My younger son's pack is chartered to a phantom group known as Friends of XYZ Public School Scouting. By phantom, I mean this group exists on paper only: it never meets, it has no membership list, and all the executive does is sign the recharter form once a year. I'm guessing that this isn't an unusual situation, as I understand that a lot of scouting units chartered directly to public schools or their associated PTAs were cut loose in the 80s and 90s. As the assistant cubmaster, and the most experience member of the adult leadership (3 whole years!), I'm not real comfortable with the existing setup - it strikes me as less than truthful. Add in that the executive said he won't be signing the recharter paperwork next spring and it's time to do something. But what? I greatly appreciate hearing from everyone, but especially from scouters with units similarly chartered to Friends Of organizations. Thanks in advance! Link to post Share on other sites
ScoutNut 147 Posted May 5, 2003 Share Posted May 5, 2003 it sounds like you need to look for another Charter Organization for your current Pack, or another Pack. If your recharter is not signed yor Pack will cease to exist. Contact your Unit/District Commissioner. He will be able to help you. Good Luck. Link to post Share on other sites
Twocubdad 665 Posted May 5, 2003 Share Posted May 5, 2003 What are the legal requirements for a CO? Not the physical requirements to provide meeting space and leadership, but the organizational requirements. Does it have to be a legal organization, i.e. incorporated? Can a couple parents get together and say they are "Friends of Pack 123"? I know businesses charter units, but can a sole proprietorship be a CO? Link to post Share on other sites
eisely 13 Posted May 5, 2003 Share Posted May 5, 2003 Speaking only from experience with no direct knowledge of how councils look at these things, when a council enters into a chartering agreement I would presume that the chartered organization has to be a legitimate legal entity. I am personally aware of one instance in another district in another council where a group of parents formed their own non profit corporation to obtain a charter for a special interest scout troop. This was a group that was particularly into cycling and wanted to focus on that activity more than an ordinary troop would. As pointed out by CubsRgr8, public schools and PTAs (sometimes labeled PTOs) have been backing away from chartering units in some parts of the country. Such units have been forced to find another sponsor or get creative. I suspect that parentally organized non profit corporations may be the wave of the future in scouting. In the case cited by CubsRgr8, there may well be a non profit corporation in existence that he (she?) just doesn't know about. There certainly is no reason to suspect foul play if the council is doing its work. Twocubdad raises an interesting question. It is correct that ordinary for profit businesses can obtain charters to operate a scout unit, although I personally have never encountered this. Would the BSA council involved in such an arrangement issue a charter to a sole proprietorship? If I were making the decision I would not do so because then the unit would be totally dependent on the life, good health, and good will of a single individual. Link to post Share on other sites
dsteele 20 Posted May 5, 2003 Share Posted May 5, 2003 I'm on vacation, so I don't have the chapter and verse in front of me. You'll just have to (actually you don't have to) take my word as a 15 year Scouting professional. Let me go on record as saying that I do not like and strive to avoid, chartering units to groups of concerned citizens. That's what the BSA calls what CubsRgr8 called "Friends Of organizations." I've only done it a few times in the many units I've helped to start. I reserve this option only for cases when no formal organization can be found that is acceptable to all concerned. The reason I odn't like this type of charter partner is that it tends to be the parents of the current scouters who form the group of concerned citizens and when one is lost, so is the other. There's no one to go to in an attempt to recharter the unit. Yes, in 1988, or 1987, the national organization of the Parents and Teachers of America (PTA) passed a resultion suggesting -- only suggesting -- that local chapters not charter units. They feared that they could be sued if a scout leader they approved turned out to be bad. It's true that they can be sued, but that's why the BSA provides liability insurance. Many, but not all local PTA's dropped their charter and some units chose to, in effect, charter themselves. The advice to find another charter partner is solid advice and I echo it. I also agree with the advice that says to communicate with your unit commissioner. They, as well as your Unit Serving Executive can help you find another charter partner. In a pinch, just have your unit elect another CR for your Friends of XYZ public school, have that new CR fill out an adult application and sign off on the charter. Here I'm speaking of reality and not ideal. In response to eisely, I have had (to my memory) two units charted to businesses. One was a bakery in Michigan and the other was to a flower shop in Illinois. The bakery was a strong charter partner with active participation with their unit. The flower shop was a dud. I prefer to deal with churches and civic groups such as the American Legion, VFW, or service clubs. I really don't see Friends Of or groups of concerned citizens as a trend . . . but I've only been employed by 3 councils and I'm sure I haven't seen everything under the sun. Every time I think I'm close, something new pops up. DS Link to post Share on other sites
Eamonn 61 Posted May 5, 2003 Share Posted May 5, 2003 I yield to the pro. Article VI.Local Councils. Section 3. Clause 3. Charters for Community Units. Says What the man of Steele, said. In my district we have had a Crew, that was chartered by a Coffee Shop. Sad to say the Coffee Shop went bust, and we lost the unit. We have a pack and Troop that are Chartered by a Funeral Home. It has been a long and happy relationship. The Kids are dying to join that one !! (Joke ) Link to post Share on other sites
dsteele 20 Posted May 5, 2003 Share Posted May 5, 2003 Man of Steele -- I like that! At five foot six and a hundred and twenty pounds it's nice to be called the man of Steele. The e on t he end means I'll bleed if you shoot me. DS Link to post Share on other sites
SR540Beaver 116 Posted May 5, 2003 Share Posted May 5, 2003 Dsteele, Relish your new nickname. At 6'2" and 275 lbs, I'm affectionately know around my house as the Incredible Bulk (instead of Hulk) and my wife's Chunka, Chunka Burnin' Love (instead of Hunka)! At least they don't call me Fatman instead of Batman. Link to post Share on other sites
dsteele 20 Posted May 5, 2003 Share Posted May 5, 2003 That's funny! Thanks for the laugh. If it's any comfort, you still qualify for Philmont. Yours in cheerful service, DS Link to post Share on other sites
scoutldr 732 Posted May 5, 2003 Share Posted May 5, 2003 dsteele, if you need about 50 lbs, I'll be glad to send them to ya! At 5'6, I'm not overweight...I'm just undertall! We have a few "friends of" units too, and have considered doing it for my own units (Pack and Troop). Sure would make recharter a lot easier...rather than trying to track down a CR that doesn't know we exist. Link to post Share on other sites
dsteele 20 Posted May 6, 2003 Share Posted May 6, 2003 Thanks for the offer of weight. I'll decline, however. I used to sell big & tall clothing and know how hard it is for men to find pants with over 42" waists, but few know how hard it is to find men's pants with under a 30" in waist. Or even a 30" waist for that matter. When retail is in a slump, it's the small sizes that disappear first. When I used to have a 28" waist, I had to shop in the boys' department. That wasn't too bad because the boy's clothes were cheaper. But the zippers were shorter and that made life uncomfortable. So I cheered when I could wear size 30's. Man's prices, but better fit. I'm in no hurry for 32" waist, even though that would move me from small to medium. Back to Scoutleader -- Being your own chartered organization would certainly be easy on the re-charter. Right up until you're gone. I don't think that's the legacy you want to leave. DS Link to post Share on other sites
SR540Beaver 116 Posted May 6, 2003 Share Posted May 6, 2003 dsteele, I hate to get us even further off topic here......but, oh well!!! Explain to me why clothing manufacturers think that anyone over a 38 inch waist has a 28" inseam!? I don't look good in capri pants! And I'm not sewing lace on the bottom to extend them either! LOL I always wondered how defensive football players found clothes? Link to post Share on other sites
purcelce 11 Posted May 6, 2003 Share Posted May 6, 2003 Speaking of Charter Organizations, I thought military units, that sponsor units, were unique. The Coffee Shop and the Funeral Home take the cake on "Most Unusal" CO. Any other out of the ordinary CO's out there? Link to post Share on other sites
Bob White 20 Posted May 6, 2003 Share Posted May 6, 2003 Through commissioning I have worked with units sponsored by "friends of scouting" groups. In every case it was to help the unit find a new chartering organization because the "friends of" group didn't exist. They had nowhere to meet, no help in selecting and approving adult leaders, no youth base to recruit from. The Charter Organization plays an important role in successful scouting. It is important that the organization not only exist but have the ability to fulfill its responsibilities as outlined in the Shared Responsibilities agreement of the BSA Charter. All to often the relationship has deteriorated over the years. Too often the unit waits for the CO to come running back saying "We are sorry we left you what can we do to help?". This isn't going to happen. We need to look at this as troubled marriage. If we are waiting for our sponse to come to us and make everything right then we might as well just sign the divorce papers. If the relationship is important to us (and it should be) then it's up to us as unit leaders to rebuild and maintain it. I'm with the others, work through your professional staff and commissioner service to find a real community organization that wants to use the scouting program to teach values to young people and partner with them to help them reach their goals. Best of Luck, Bob White Link to post Share on other sites
dsteele 20 Posted May 6, 2003 Share Posted May 6, 2003 Thanks, Bob, for bringing us back on track. While it is technically possible to charter units to groups of concerned citizens, it shouldn't be done except as a last resort. There are a lot of other options available. As far as I'm concerned (this is an opinion,) a unit chartered to a group of concerned citizens is like an extention cord plugged into itself. The connection is met, but there isn't a whole lot of power when you need it. DS Link to post Share on other sites
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