What is allowed by bsa?

[EagleInKY 14]

Ron, While you are not supposed to go to businesses to ask for donations (the Council reserves that right for themselves), there are many businesses and organizations that offer grants to charitable organizations. If you can find such a thing in your area, you can solicit that. Last year our troop received two grants of approximately $2,500 each.

[fotoscout 15]

Im not balking at our camp prices; actually its a great bargain! We are everything that Dave mentioned. 8-5 five days & early drop-off @ no extra charge, paid staff & some volunteers, shirts, patch, crafts, and, at the council camp location we even provide lunch & snack. We run two day camp programs, one at the Council Camp that runs for 8 weeks, the other travels to three different locations in the Council area, and stays two weeks at each location.

 

All in all it's a great program.

[Bob White 20]

EagleinKY

It is unlikely that any scout unit is a registered Charitable Organization officially reffered to as a 501©(3). To represent yourself as one is illegal, unless you have actually completed the needed government and financial documents and have been certified as such.

 

For a company to give you such a grant is highly suspect and probably illegal at the very least they are violating tax laws.

 

Your Charter Organization might be one, not all are. Your Council is one.

 

You have given very dangerous advice here. A grant is still money, and a unit may not take money without the exchange of goods or services in the form of a council approved money earning project. Unless your unit is a registered 501©(3) you are using the name and images of the BSA without proper authorization and you are subjecting your unit leadership and Charter Organization to both civil and criminal prosecution.

 

You need to talk to your council scout executive or a lawyer (or both) before you continue this practice.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[EagleInKY 14]

Oh Bob, you're always jumping to conclusions. I guess I should be more explicit. The grants were written up under the name of the CO, which is a 501©(3) organization ("Troop 123 of the ABC Church"). A copy of the church's 501©(3) documentation was included in the requests.

 

As for council approval, our DEs have always encouraged us to use these grants. I would guess that nearly every troop and pack in our area has gotten funding from them at one time or another. Why in the world would they be opposed to units getting funds to help purchase equipment? It's in their best interest as well as ours.

[Bob White 20]

"Oh Bob, you're always jumping to conclusions."

 

ALWAYS?

 

I look forward to you trying to substantiate that claim.

 

The fact is you said that your troop received that grant, and it did not. You even admitted that the money was given to the church not to the troop, and they could have used it in anyway they chose.

 

You said you can solicit and that is not true. A representative of the 501©(3) may solicit. If a unit representative presents themselves in that manner without the approval of the actual charitable organization and in uniform as a representative of the scouting program they could face severe legal problems.

 

Why would the BSA be against any unit making money? They would not be, as long as it was done legally and in accordance with BSA policies which state you CANNOT seek money without written council approval or without an exchange of goods or services as defined by the BSA.

 

The registered 501©(3) is able to seek such funds but not you as a representative of a scout unit.

 

[EagleInKY 14]

ALWAYS? Oh Bob, you are always such a literalist. Oops, there I go again. Well, maybe this time it's true.

The fact is you said that your troop received that grant, and it did not.

What I said was that we requested the funds as "Troop 123 of ABC Church". The check was written out to "Troop 123". Therefore, I stand by my statement. The troop did request the funds. The church knew we were doing it, but had no involvement in the process.

You even admitted that the money was given to the church not to the troop, and they could have used it in anyway they chose.

To use your words, "I look forward to you trying to substantiate that claim". Actually, thecheck was made out to the troop, mailed to me (the Scoutmaster) at my home address. It came with stipulations that it had to be used according to the terms of the application (camping gear for our new troop). And, I have to give documentation back to them proving such.

You said you can solicit and that is not true.

Okay, you got me on a technicality. Technically, we "applied" for the grant. The grant has a due date before which applications must be turned in. The Trustees meet and review each application and give according to how they see fit (in accordance with the rules of the endowment).

A representative of the 501©(3) may solicit. If a unit representative presents themselves in that manner without the approval of the actual charitable organization and in uniform as a representative of the scouting program they could face severe legal problems.

I never said oreven hinted that I did anything without the knowledge of our CO, or didI do anything in the uniform. It was all done by letter.

 

My company has a great philosophy in regards to how we treat others. We say "trust in the positive intentions of others". That means, when you read or hear something, you don't immediately jump to the worst possible conclusion. You assume that the person has the right motives and intentions in mind. You follow-up with them to verify, and then take corrective action if necessary. You, however, immediately assume that a criminal act has taken place and recommend that I "talk to your council scout executive or a lawyer " How arrogant and presumptuous that is. While I agree with many of your answers on this board, I really hate the way you assume the worst in others.

[Bob White 20]

First of all, you chose your words, I can only go by what you say.

 

Explain this please. You acknowledged "While you are not supposed to go to businesses to ask for donations (the Council reserves that right for themselves)" which is correct according to the policies of the BSA.

 

BUT then later wrote"The troop did request the funds." So you admit that you did indeed violate that BSA policy.

 

You then wrote " there are many businesses and organizations that offer grants to charitable organizations." But the troop, as has been explained and as you agreed,IS NOT a charitable organization.

 

You also wrote"The grants were written up under the name of the CO, which is a 501©(3) organization ("Troop 123 of the ABC Church"). A copy of the church's 501©(3) documentation was included in the requests." giving the impression that the church as the legal charitable organization was involved, but then YOU wrote "The church knew we were doing it, but had no involvement in the process."

 

So if the church had no involvement, and the troop is not a legal charitable organization, then company you got the money from was indeed mislead. And is likely in violation of the tax laws covering such a grant.

 

But how would they know that based on the information and methods you used to gain the grant.

 

Suggesting you talk to a scouting professional or a laywer is not arrogance, it is a serious suggestion based on the facts you have shared. To suggest to others to do what you have done is not a good idea. It was not done in accordance with BSA policies governing the use of the BSA name or its money earning policies. Nor did it follow the tax laws covering grants to charitable organizations.

 

You may have followed the letter, but certainly not the letter of the law. And I am looking at this from a positive approach. I am confident that you did this with the best of intentions and thinking that this was an appropriate action. But I believe if you discussed this with people who actual know about the rules of these things you will find that you were incorrect.

 

Scout units are not charitable organizations and they cannot seek direct funding without returning a product or service as described in the policies of the BSA.

 

 

 

[Bob White 20]

my apologies to all. The underlining was an HTML code error and was not meant to be there.

[Proud Eagle 13]

Can a charter organization (assuming it is a cheritable organization) apply for private grant money and other things of that nature on behalf of a Scout unit.

 

As an example, if the group offering the grant requires applications to include the intended use of the grant money, can the charter organization honestly answer that it intends to use the money to purchase equipment for use by its Scout unit?

 

I am guessing that is OK. If it isn't then there are some very serious and, based on my experiences, widespread problems.

[Bob White 20]

A charter organization can raise money by any leagal method it chooses and spend it in any way it chooses, or within the contons set by the grant.

 

The problem in this situation is that EagleinKY said that the CO was not involved in the process and that the troop got the money for the troop using the CO's Charitable Organization designation. That is improper.

[packsaddle 753]

We have huge successes at fundraising. The best method is to take a few little kids, put dirt on their faces and dress them in tattered clothes, and then have them stand in the median at intersections with hand-scrawled signs asking for money for summer camp. It works best when it's raining or on football weekends. We give them a cut of the profit to keep up the enthusiasm.

 

Seriously, Bob is right on this where the 501c status is required. However, there are some types of grants that do not require that status - it's largely a function of who is doing the granting. I suppose that there is some circumstance where a granting entity might make the agreement with a troop but I can't think of what it would be (I sure wouldn't do it that way). I suppose that if a grant was given with the purpose of simply purchasing equipment or funding underprivileged children...h'mmm...how would that be different from a contribution?

 

But the CO can potentially be the recipient of a grant. The troop can potentially participate in the grant work and they can potentially benefit from it. But the CO is responsible for completion of any grant work or products that they agreed to. If the troop walked away from it for some reason, the CO would still be left to live up to the agreement.

[EagleInKY 14]

I feel a dead horse being beaten severely here. I'll make one more comment and then I'm done.

 

The CO appointed me Scoutmaster. As Scoutmaster, I represent the unit and the CO. I have their state tax exemption forms and their 501©(3) forms for our use. We are a function of that organization. As such, when I represent myself as "SM of Troop 123 of ABC Church", I am truthfully and accurately representing myself and the organization.

 

When I say that they had no involvement in the process, I am stating that they did not fill out the forms, write the letter, specify our equipment needs or put the stamp on the envelope. What they did do was appoint me as SM, authorize me to use their 501©(3) status, and acknowledge/approve me seeking the grant money.

 

This process is very legal and above board. Remember, a Scout is Trustworthy and Obedient. Everything about this is done publically and ethically. This particular grant is:

- ran by a law firm

- administered by one of the largest banks in the U.S.

- overseen by a board of trustees composed of some our communities top citizens.

 

Further, it openly reports its donations in the local newspaper.

 

Regarding the BSA rules, I'm by no means an expert. I assume that the council is okay with it since it is technically acquired by the CO's status. All I know is that several DEs and two Field Directors know about it and encourage units to solicit these funds whenever possible! Perhaps it's not a big deal to them since they are not qualified to receive this particular grant's money (due to their location).

 

I'm sure Bob will find ways to parse my words and come up with another rebuttal. I'm not taking the bait. All I can say, for the Scouters that are in need, is to look at this as an option. Of course, consult with your DE and your CO before committing to anything.

[Bob White 20]

"All I know is that several DEs and two Field Directors know about it and encourage units to solicit these funds whenever possible!"

 

If this is in fact the case, then they are in violation of the national policies which specifically state that units cannot solicit money without the exchange of goods and services as specified in the BSA Money Earning Applications and national policies.

 

AS a legal 501©(3) the council would be eligible for those same dollars and it would be highly unlikely that they would encourage units to misrepresent their legal status, violate BSA national policy, and compete for the same funds.

 

I stand by my original post, this is a dangerous and questionable activity for a scout leader or scout unit to pursue.

 

By the way as a selected scout master you are not authorized to represent the BSA or anyone else, What you did agree to however was to follow the methods and policies of the BSA.

 

Saying that one is supposed to be Trustworthy and obedient does not make them so. Actions determine traits not words.

 

[KoreaScouter 13]

Scoutmaster Ron;

 

You have to provide something of value; it can be a product or a service...such as a car wash. Look at the back of the unit money earning application, and all the nuances are laid bare for you to see. One of the restrictions I think is quaint is that you aren't supposed to conduct a fund-raiser that "competes" with local merchants or businessmen. Frankly, most of the things we do compete with local merchants or businessmen in some way.

 

KS

[Bob White 20]

That is an often misunderstood clause KS. It doesn't mean that you can't sell popcorn because the video store sells popcorn. It means that the unit cannot develop a fulltime enterprise that conflicts with a local business in order to fund the scout unit.