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BadenP

Is the AHG truly a Scouting program??

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One difference is that BSA is old enough that we can argue endlessly about what the original intent of the founder was and whether or not we're living up to it. But AHG is new and the living founder could make all of this perfectly clear if she wanted. But I guess we can argue endlessly about that too, lol.

 

The line, as you mention, has been drawn by BSA. It's just difficult to see exactly where the line begins and ends....so we argue endlessly about it. ;)

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BSA's line in the sand is that you have to belive in a higher power but they will not tell you who to belive in. it doesnt even say that your belife has to be part of a formal religion. Which works for me because i DO belive in a higher power but my beliefs are my own.

 

This particular line is the same used by masons and thats an organization as old as dirt. So id say its working pretty well for them.

 

Both have a tendency to say god because in this country the majority of people belive in GOD. but should sombody in the group not belive that they are accomedating.

 

In the International Order of the Rainbow for girls (which is a group under the masons for young ladies) they had an exchange student come for a year that was muslim. The kuran and the bible were put out so as to accomidate her.

 

Acceptance. It is the true thing everyone longs for. The one thing everyone craves. To walk in a room and to be greeted by everyone with hugs and smiles. And in that small passing moment, you truly know you're loved, needed, and accepted.

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So, Moose, what you are saying is Sometimes you want to go Where everybody knows your name,and they're always glad you came.You wanna be where you can see,our troubles are all the same You wanna be where everybody knows Your name.

 

And yes, its true

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"In the International Order of the Rainbow for girls (which is a group under the masons for young ladies) they had an exchange student come for a year that was muslim. The kuran and the bible were put out so as to accomidate her."

 

Some might view that as indifferentism. I would not get involved with an organization that promoted that view.

 

I think the solution for those who find AHG unaccommodating would be to do what AHG did and start their own organization, or try to affiliate with an existing organization that shares their values.

 

Yes, it can be difficult to start something from scratch. But I don't think it is more difficult than lobbying for BSA/GSUSA/AHG/etc. to change. Consider this: the BSA is huge and "official"; the likelihood of a few people effecting change in the organization is minimal. The AHG was founded for a specific purpose or "mission," so again, the likelihood of effecting change is small.

 

I don't mean that people shouldn't point out injustice when it exists -- but even then, decrying injustice can be exhausting and that energy could be better spent on other projects.

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"Some might view that as indifferentism. I would not get involved with an organization that promoted that view."

 

You do realize that the BSA perspective on religion is much more like that of the Masons and the Rainbow girls than the AHG don't you.

 

SA

 

 

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Scoutfish

 

Your last post was not only lacking in ANY proof of your opinions on AHG it was both hilarious and extremely moronic.

 

Many of you seem to think I oppose the AHG which I do not, what I do not approve is that the BSA and a few Catholic churches have decided to enter into a formal partnership with this organization giving it the kind of credibility that it really does not deserve.

 

The AHG should be allowed to offer their program to girls as long as it does not promote bigotry and intolerance of non Christians, which was happening with the AHG in my area, and why the Catholic Bishop here terminated his diocese partnership with the AHG and the very few AHG troops in his church's. The Bishop here was able to see and understand the problems with the AHG that sadly a number of posters here do not or refuse to see.

 

Those of you who think the AHG is a great partner for the BSA and a good influence on your daughters more power to you and good luck. I guess the people in my area are a little more enlightened than some of you here posting indefensivable support for the AHG.

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"You do realize that the BSA perspective on religion is much more like that of the Masons and the Rainbow girls than the AHG don't you."

 

That is why I am not involved with the BSA.

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Baden P is again inexplicable:

 

 

>

 

 

>

 

 

I am prepared to believe that some AHG leaders may be offering an objectionable program. If so, it's quite reasonable that Baden P and Catholic and other churches in the area might object to them.

 

 

But rather than be specific about objections to program run by particular leaders, Baden P seems to me to have objected to the who AHG program in general over and over and over again.

 

Perhaps Baden P can clarify his objections:

 

what specific things have you seen happening in AHG in your local area to which you object? Are these objection aimed at that specific local program only?

 

 

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BadenP,

Totally get this. If the troops in your area were being run poorly, and likely not in concert with the intention of the national organization, then that's unfortunate. There are bad seeds in every organization, and, unfortunately, they reflect on the organization as a whole. Like I have maintained from the beginning, since AHG troops are sponsored by charter organizations, the "feel" of the troop can vary significantly, as can the theology. I'm not expecting you to go out and find another troop to try out, but I hope you can understand that one bad experience doesn't necessarily represent the organization as a whole. I'm sure there are "bad" troops and/or packs out there (in fact, we know here have been), but that doesn't keep BSA from being a great organization for young men.

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"Your last post was not only lacking in ANY proof of your opinions ..."

 

Ummm...proof of my opinion?

 

Are you serious? If I say how I feel, then that is trhe proof of MY OPINION .

 

When it comes to my my opinion. My word is my proof.

 

I am the sole authority and expert of my opinion.

 

PERIOD!

 

 

But thanks for totaly avoiding answering any other question - as usual.

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Peregrinator

If your not involved with the BSA and youve said you dont know much about AHG.....which scouting group are you with?

 

 

and its not indifferntism....it was showing respect to all religions. It allowed them to worship their beliefs instead of conforming to the traditional christianity. This is why we do it in scouts as well. We dont exclude them for thier belifes and allow people to worship who ever it is they worship. If you dont like it Thats fine you can worship your god(s) and it doesnt disrupt/exclude any body. We dont force you to belive what we do. That is a sign of respect as well as acceptence.

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"If your not involved with the BSA and youve said you dont know much about AHG.....which scouting group are you with?"

 

FSE

 

"and its not indifferntism....it was showing respect to all religions. It allowed them to worship their beliefs instead of conforming to the traditional christianity."

 

Suggesting that the Bible and the Qur'an have the same standing *is* indifferentism. It goes beyond mere human respect. That's not to say that Muslims shouldn't be able to worship as they wish -- only that it would be best if, a group has a spiritual dimension, that it not be religiously mixed. And that is one of my issues with AHG, as well, that it tries to appeal to Christians of all stripes.

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Peregrinator, help me understand what you are saying. Do you intend to suggest that the BSA would be better off to pick not only one major faith background (say, Christianity), but also that it would be better to specify a particular denomination within that faith (say, Presbyterians)?

 

If the BSA were to do this, would it not have a rather small pool of people from which to draw its members?

 

Also, and please forgive my ignorance, what is FSE?

 

 

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"Peregrinator, help me understand what you are saying. Do you intend to suggest that the BSA would be better off to pick not only one major faith background (say, Christianity), but also that it would be better to specify a particular denomination within that faith (say, Presbyterians)?"

 

No, not necessarily. I don't think it is possible for the BSA to do that. What would be possible (and desirable, I think) would be for troops and dens to be separated by religion. I think in the first few decades of Scouting this was the norm -- at least for say Catholic troops. But as I'm not involved with the BSA, that's not up to me -- the BSA can do whatever it believes works for them. I just don't see how an ecumenical service can possibly please all. Someone is always going to be upset, whether it is agnostics, Muslims, neo-pagans, etc. And trying to please everyone is what leads to indifferentism. I don't mean that Christian scouts should not learn about other religions, say, but I don't think that one should tell them that there's nothing special about Christianity and God will accept them just fine if they're Muslim.

 

"Also, and please forgive my ignorance, what is FSE?"

 

Federation of European Scouts (Federation Scoutisme Europeen).

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