Origins of Civilization

[OldGreyEagle 5]

In the parent thread there was talk seemingly about the nature of man, is he good or bad inherently. So, is man good or bad inherently?

 

 

[Rooster7 11]

To make the question clear, you need to put it in context. Did you mean to say Is man good or bad inherently, in terms of honorable thought and given an absolute standard such as Gods Word. If so, I think with the smallest amount of introspection, every man knows the answer to that question.

 

If there is no absolute standard, whos to say what is good and what is bad?

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

If there is no absolute standard, who's to say what is good and what is bad?

 

If there IS an absolute standard, but people don't agree on which absolute standard to use or whose interpretation is correct, the end result is the same.

[OldGreyEagle 5]

I think the Greeks, particularly of Athens, were a very civilized society. They had great regard for the Arts, Songs, Poetry and Philosophy. They also had a huge respect for the military, something inspired by the Spartans, their neighbors.

 

The Athenians came up with Democracy, allowing the majority of citizens to make decisions concerning the community, quite a novel concept and one that wouldnt be seen again for quite awhile. I beleiev studying Greek culture is what inspired Thomas Jefferson during our nations founding days. Was the polytheistic religion of the Greeks resonsible for the development of their Culture, or did the development of their Culture produce their polytheistic religion?

 

Did the Greeks recognize the dignity of man outside of religious instruction or did their religion instill their thoughts of the nature of man? Without the Greeks myths brought to us today by Hamilton or Bullfinch, would the Greeks have been as powerful a cultural influence over the past?.

 

[packsaddle 753]

...or influence over the present for that matter. The question of goodness or badness is simply a point of view. From my point of view, I see only goodness in a newborn. Anything bad is usually applied later from outside the person. I see no evidence of inherent badness.

[Rooster7 11]

Packsaddle,

 

I don't know what goes on inside the head of a newborn. Certainly, whatever bad thoughts they could possibly have, pale in comparison to any adult's dark thoughts.

 

That said, from what Ive witnessed, it's a short ride between birth and the first sign of selfish thought - whether that be screams and tears for attention from one's crib or a two year olds temper tantrum for a toy - our self-centeredness becomes evident quite quickly. Also, I challenge anyone who claims that we have pure thoughts as young children, to reach back in their memories and try to recall their own thoughts, desires, and behaviors at that age. I believe few if any can make that claim of innocence, yet we seem to believe all other children have good thoughts - especially after we've become adults (and forgotten our own sinful thoughts as children).

 

I love children, but Im not so niave to believe that most (or even some) always have good thoughts, and left to their own wills the world would be a better place. Go rent Lord of the Flies.

 

[acco40 95]

Children have developmental stages. It is ludicrous to try and teach a three year old to share. They are not in that stage of development.

 

The "terrible twos" come about because the child is just starting to realize that he is an independent being - not an extension of everyone else (or everyone else an extension of him).

 

I cringe when someone tries to label such behavior as "good" or "bad." Is is bad if an infant cries when it is hungry, wet or tired? They don't know how to feed themselves, put themselves to sleep or change themselves.

 

Christianity states that newborns have "original sin." Something that many find controversial. Governments used to make the offspring of debtors and other "criminals" take on the burden of their parents. They've stopped that practice.

[Rooster7 11]

Acco40,

 

Okay - so maybe we have an excuse for our behavior (good, bad, or indifferent) through the terrible two's...maybe even a year or two after that. I'm not completely buying your assertion that a two year old doesn't realize that his behavior is bad - but I'll relent. Bottom line - eventually, it's not about development...it's just about ourselves. My vote - we're inherently bad (i.e. prone to please ourselves...prone to sin).

[packsaddle 753]

"Go rent Lord of the Flies."

Proof through comparison to a movie. I'm in awe.

 

"Christianity states that newborns have "original sin."" Indeed you are correct, acco40. I find the view disgusting and reprehensible. If there was such a mythical thing as satan, it would embrace that view.

[Eagledad 2780]

>>eventually, it's not about development...it's just about ourselves. My vote - we're inherently bad (i.e. prone to please ourselves...prone to sin).

[Gold Winger 9]

Rent "Lord of the Flies"? Shessh! Go to the library, get the book and read it. Why watch a movie when you can read the book?

[Beavah 205]

Why watch a movie when you can read the book?

 

Yah, I reckon movies made from books are inherently evil.

 

Rooster, mate, I think yeh got it wrong. Man is made in da image and likeness of God. That God himself became man, was friends with men and women, sent his Spirit out to abide in us.

 

Yah, we're tempted. Yah, we're fallen from what we should be. Yet we strive to rise again.

 

Man is inherently good.

 

Beavah

 

[Gold Winger 9]

Evil? Don't know about that but they usually don't carry the entire message of the book, if they even follow the book.

[OldGreyEagle 5]

If man is inherently evil, how did the Greeks invent democracy? Initiate the development of the arts, recognize the dignity of man? These are the building blocks of western civilization. Did these themes evolve from the Greeks religious beliefs or did the religious belief form from the culture? Ancient Greece was a very civilized time, what was the reason? Was it devotion to their faith or the nobility of man allowed to flourish?

[Rooster7 11]

Packsaddle,

 

"Go rent Lord of the Flies."

Proof through comparison to a movie. I'm in awe.

 

Getting a little personal, arent we? I thought you missed my sparring.

 

No matter - Its a well constructed movie. And I point it out as a good example of how kids, collectively, tend to act no differently than adults.

 

"Christianity states that newborns have "original sin."" Indeed you are correct, acco40. I find the view disgusting and reprehensible. If there was such a mythical thing as satan, it would embrace that view.

 

I cant say I entirely understand Adam and Eves fall and how were impacted by their act of rebellion (i.e. original sin). What I do understand is this I have yet to befriend a person on this planet who eventually did not display a selfish heart and/or confessed to the same. Yes, there are many people who behave well and appear to show all the signs of a generous and loving person. While I dont deny our ability to love others, Im convinced left alone (without God) our hearts will always revert back to its first love ones self.

 

Eagledad,

 

I think you have it backwards, first it starts with just about ourselves, then it is about development. Every single person is born with their bent or attitude.

 

Well yes. I submit that bent at birth is always and primarily serving and loving oneself and does not fundamentally change until we embrace God. I was trying to convey to Packsaddle that eventually we become young adults and we have no more excuses (if indeed we ever had such an excuse).

 

It is interesting how we look at kids as selfish in nature and cringe from it. But nature put that selfishness in most creatures when they are young for survival.

 

I think when a three year old smacks his younger sister because she has the audacity to pick up one of his toys; it has nothing to do with survival. Its just a kid acting out and being selfish.

 

And it changes when the youth goes through puberty. I have watched it in scouts many hundreds of times to be convinced of it. After puberty, most humans are giving and caring because that is nature required to raise families.

 

Wow that doesnt reflect the world I live in. Explain a >50% divorce rate and the amount of child abuse thats reported here in the U.S. and elsewhere. What happened to all those great kids did they do through another developmental stage?

 

Beavah.

 

Rooster, mate, I think yeh got it wrong. Man is made in da image and likeness of God. That God himself became man, was friends with men and women, sent his Spirit out to abide in us.

 

Yah, we're tempted. Yah, we're fallen from what we should be. Yet we strive to rise again.

 

Man is inherently good.

 

Since youre referencing the Bible to make your point, I assume that youre a Christian and believe in Gods Word. So if were made in Gods image (as you noted and the Bible teaches), I have to also assume you believe in mans fallen nature (as taught in Genesis), and its not until we repent and accept Jesus as our Savior that God sends His Holy Spirit to us. Thus, without Gods intervention (His Sons sacrifice, His stirring of our hearts, and His Holy Spirit, etc.), man has no hope of being good. You can strive to rise again, but its not going to happen without some assistance.

 

OldGreyEagle,

 

If man is inherently evil, how did the Greeks invent democracy

 

Even a serial killer can show acts of kindness, that doesnt change the evil that resides inside that person.

(This message has been edited by Rooster7)