Global politics and scouting

[OldGreyEagle 5]

If someone can point out historic fallacies to anything I have said, please do so.

 

I see nothing wrong with an accurate recounting of history. Our Troop Meeting was held on Dec 7th last year, I asked the scouts is they knew what day it was. A few did, no politics, just a remembrance of history.

 

 

[Eamonn 61]

I have to admit to being a little taken back about how little the Scouts I know seem to know about Global anything.

Few if any ever read a newspaper.

Few even seem able to point out where the States in the USA are.

Driving a van load of Scouts a few weeks back I overheard one Lad say the best thing to do with Iraq was to nuke them all.

Sure they support the Troops.

They understand that these Troops are the fathers and mothers of kids just like them. But they don't seem to have any idea about the why they are there.

Last time I was in London, I was driven to the airport by a Pakistani mini-cab driver.

His view and take on what was happening was a lot different to what we read in the press.

Sadly the sound bite has replaced real news reporting.

Even more sad is that the Scouts don't even bother with this.

Eamonn.

[acco40 95]

OGE, the UN has currently asked Israel to stop all hostilities in southern Lebanon. Do you advocate we start bombing Israel to enforce this UN directive?

 

In the metro-Detroit area we have the largest group of Arabs in the US (some will say Los Angeles). We get many diverse, passioned and in my book, crazy ideas in these parts. We also can have great discussions from many different points of view. My neighbors are Iraqis and I've learned from them. No, they are not Saddam supporters but the US has made many mistakes in Iraq.

 

The US military is unique. Our soldiers, airmen, sailors and marines do not take an oath to serve Bush, the President, the people, Congress, etc. They take an oath to defend the constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic. Most foreign militaries are there to do the bidding of individuals. When Saddam signed a treaty, do you really think he represented the Iraqi people? The nation? Also, our fine soldiers are trained to seek and destroy the enemy, not be policemen, judges, jail keepers, consensus builders, etc. To ask them to perform these roles is not only unfair but dangerous.

 

To get to the question at hand, no I don't discuss these issues with the Scouts in my role as Scoutmaster. If asked, I may give them some limited information and play devils advocate when these young minds think they know the answer to these complex questions (like Eamon's nuke them all Scouts who I am sure are just echoing their parents opinions).

 

Last summer, I was driving home from an outing from North Manitou Island (I highly recommend it!). In my car was my son (13) and two other boys, one 14 and one almost 15. The oldest of the boys had older brothers in the 18 - 25 year range who had friends in the Army who were about to be deployed to Iraq. Also, a graduate of our local elementary school, whose parents still live a block from my house, had just lost a son in combat in Iraq. My son, was quiet about the issue, too young to really feel it had any direct relevance but the oldest Scout expressed his opinion. He was very much confused and conflicted but overall was against the US military presence in Iraq. When it is not just a cerebral discussion of "why" but concrete evidence of young lives he knows being directly affected, well the debate has more meaning.

 

My two cents to the boys was simply it pays no dividend to discuss why the US decided to attack Iraq, disband their military, remove Baathists from government positions, stand by as the country fell into chaos, etc. The question at hand is what should the US do now?

(This message has been edited by acco40) (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[OldGreyEagle 5]

As I understand it, UN resolution 1559 was passed six years ago, it told Israel to get out of southern Lebanon and Lebanon was to get Hisbollah out of southern Lebanon as well. Well, that hasnt happened. Well, actually Israel did get out of southern Lebanon, and the Golan heights and the Gaza strip.

 

Maybe we should bomb Israel and Hisbollah for not paying attention to the UN resolution, fair is fair. There does need to be 17 more to meet the threshold level that was reached before Iraq was invaded.

[Zahnada 11]

It bothers me that for the most powerful nation in the world, our youth are vastly unaware of the global and even national situation. Maybe scouting isn't the proper forum for such discussion, but the "Duty to Country" aspect seems like it should be. I mean, what is "Duty to Country"? Is it blindly saluting the flag and reciting the pledge?

 

Boy Scouts have always supported our troops. But for that support to be real, they should understand what our troops are fighting for. But how do we explain that when half the country disagrees over what the troops are fighting for?

 

I just know that it was in college when I finally learned about the Israel/Palestine situation. It wasn't until college (or maybe senior year of high school) when I learned what "communism" and "capitalism" actually meant. And that's pathetic!

 

Our actions as Americans affect the entire world. But so few people even have a reasonable knowledge of what's going on out there.

 

But is it out of place to begin a scoutmaster's minute by saying, "If any of you have watched the news lately, you've seen footage of the Israeli conflict. Does anyone know what that's about? Why it's important to the US?"

[acco40 95]

Forget the Scouts. My God, have you asked returning troops "Why are we fighting in Iraq?" You won't get a concensus from them so what pray tell do we tell the boys in our Boy Scout Troop? OGE's reasons? Acco40's reasons? Zahnada's reason's? What I think we could introduce to the boys is that it is our duty at citizens to be an informed citizenry and leave it at that.

[fgoodwin 23]

What Nick said . . .

[Lisabob 13]

Zahnada writes:

But is it out of place to begin a scoutmaster's minute by saying, "If any of you have watched the news lately, you've seen footage of the Israeli conflict. Does anyone know what that's about? Why it's important to the US?"

 

 

Well I think that the answers to these last two questions depend greatly on your perspective. And I think it takes someone very skilled to lead this discussion with a group of kids and have it go somewhere productive. Where I live, many scouts have relatives either living in the Middle East or serving in the US armed forces (or both) so it is also important to walk a line between discussion/information and needlessly scaring kids or unwittingly stirring up what may be very emotional issues for them.

 

I hate to say this but there are a fair number of people I've met in scouting who I would be happy to have my son emulate in many ways, but who I do not believe could pull off this conversation. There are also many who I like and respect, but who hold very different political views from mine. Just as they probably wouldn't want me to use the SM minute to regularly impose my personal political views on the boys, I really don't want them to either. If my son were to ask one of these people about their views, that's one thing and an opportunity for an open exchange of views. But to use the platform we're granted as leaders to seek to tell others, unsolicited, how to think about politics, well that's another and in my view, goes too far.

 

Now, if the above were the lead-in to a general discussion of why it is important to learn about the world around you, to respect divergent viewpoints, to seek information from many sources, etc., then maybe it could work. (As opposed to a discussion of Syria, Iran, Hizbullah, Lebanon's questionable sovereignty, Lebanon's not-too-distant experience with civil war, whether Hizbullah is a legitimate part of the Lebanese political scene or "just" a terrorist group, and why they seem to have a surprising level of popularity even among Lebanese people who decry violence, why Hizbullah seems to feel justified in its regular mortar attacks against Israel, Israeli policy regarding the pull-out from Southern Lebanon and why they occupied S. Lebanon to start with, why Israel feels it has the right to defend itself by attacking Lebanon and creating a situation in which currently 1/4 of the Lebanese population has had to flee their homes and become internal refugees, and so on and so on...)

 

But frankly, even if someone handled the above with a great deal of sophistication and nuance, how it would all fit into a sensible SM minute is a little beyond me anyway.

 

Lisa'bob

[SR540Beaver 116]

The SM Minute should be a "short" refection on an element of the Oath and Law to get the boy to think. It should not be a springboard into a long deep discussion of world politics.

[Lisabob 13]

Exactly Beaver - and I can't see how you'd do that with such a topic as the Middle East turmoil, unless you ended up over-simplifying to a point where it becomes ludicrous. Arrogance/ignorance aren't going to be combatted by such a discussion and in fact might be bolstered.

 

Lisa'bob

[Zahnada 11]

Lisabob and Beaver are completely right. I guess these is no good way to boil down politics into bite sized, non-partisan chunks.

 

But what I would like to do is get the boys thinking on a larger scale. Think about the world and their place in it. Reflect on their duties as American citizens. The citizenship merit badges are a start, but once you finish the requirements...

 

Hmmm... I feel a political, national and world awareness is important to our mission as scout leaders. I just don't see how to implement it. Just saying, "Well, they'll learn all they need to learn from the merit badges" seems like a cop-out. Any ideas for better ways?

[Fuzzy Bear 12]

OGE, ( I have thought about your question for awhile.)

 

When Andy doesnt show you his hands, you dont blow his britches off with a gun.

 

Can anyone remember the WACO incident where people had guns and were holed up in their own home? The Law decided to make sure that the gun laws were not being broken. So, up on the house top they went and began firing down the chimney. In the aftermath, a big argument ensued about who fired first and what kind of weapons were used and who was right and who was wrong and to this day there are big black marks against the Law for their lack of forethought.

 

The point was that nobody and I mean nobody thought that there was any other way than to blow the britches off of the bad guys.

 

Had someone thought about it for one minute, the leader, David K., could have been quietly arrested downtown and the followers would have dutifully marched in to defend their leader and then the rest could have been quickly and quietly jailed. People would not have to have died and the Law would have looked like they knew what they were doing.

 

I realize there would have no heroes but there would have been a world of respect given to those in the legal profession for having more than one weapon in their arsenal. Being the richest and mightiest nation on earth means, we should also use our brains on occasion instead of our big stick.

 

And now the rest of the story:

As for Andy, the DL looks him straight in the eye and tells him that you no longer want whatever he has behind his back. The DL continues to speak directly to Andy while the ADL moves the other Scouts quickly outside. The ADL is given the cell phone with Andys Mothers number on speed dial. She is rung up and told to come and pick Andy up as soon as she can. Andy is then told that his Mother wants to speak to him. Andy is given the cell phone to speak to his Mother. His Mother is told to continue speaking to Andy until she picks him up from the Den meeting.

 

Andy is not to be threatened or punished anytime during this episode. Once the knife is released AND the Mother arrives, then a discussion can be held regarding Andys future being permanently supervised at all Scout related activities.

 

And now for the 1% solution:

Our Vice President has offered us the1% solution. He has told the press that if there is 1% possibility that Iraq had WOMD, then it was worth it even if we were wrong.

 

The problem with the 1% solution:

Where do we stop and can we stop because everyone meets the criteria.

We are much smarter than what is being offered. It is my sincere prayer that we use our brains for awhile. FB

[packsaddle 753]

I once read, "Violence is the last resort of the incompetent." OK, it was SciFi but that at least makes a link to religion....?

[OldGreyEagle 5]

SO the competent way of handling Hitler would have been?

 

The competent way of handling the Japanese after Pearl Harbor would have been?

 

The competent way of handling the North Koreans in 1953 would have been?

[Lisabob 13]

Zahnada, I think there are myriad ways to teach scouts about citizenship and they come in bits and pieces over time and through repeat exposure. But global awareness is a subject close to my heart too and so here are a few things I've done/promoted in the past to try to raise this a little bit. These are focused on cubs because that's where I was more active as a leader, but there's no reason some of them couldn't be adapted to be suitable for troop-aged boys too.

 

1. Invite exchange students to visit and share some things about their country and culture. (how about inviting them to join the troop for the duration of their stay in the US?)

2. Choose something international for a monthly theme. We held an international festival where each den represented a country and provided a display, game, and food from "their" country. The kids had a good time with it and I was surprised at how international our community actually is, when parents and grandparents and neighbors started sharing their personal backgrounds.

3. Set up a penpal exchange with a scout group from another country.

4. Variation - we did a "where in the world is cubby?" thing where we put together a kit as a pack. It included a stuffed bear, a journal, a disposable camera, and a letter w/ our contact info & a request to have it passed on, and returned to us by a certain date. We then started it on a global journey (someone in the group sent it to a friend in another country, who sent it to someone else, etc.). Each month we'd track the bear's progress via emails we'd received from the bear's current host. It was a cool project that got the boys really interested in the world beyond our borders. The bear came back in the end with a great journal and lots of photos and new friends. You could do the same thing in the US for that matter.

5. Hold a language & cultures beltloop workshop

6. "Adopt" a soldier from your area who is stationed in some far-off place (though we had some discussion about whether or not this would be a good idea, given the inherent risk that soldiers face in their jobs)

 

Now not one of these things was designed to teach kids about foreign policy or global politics. But all of them help broaden the kids' exposure to the world and that in itself will eventually result in a better understanding of global citizenship, I think, just like getting kids outside makes them more respectful of the environment at a later age. At the very least, it might trigger some little spark of curiosity at some later time.

 

Lisa'bob