Exclusive City Policy Attacks Civil Rights

[GernBlansten 10]

Merlyn: I think they get free berths for this community program:

http://www.berkeleyyc.org/BYCservice.html

 

Don't confuse the BYC with the city of Berkley Marina. If I'm correct, the BYC leases or has bought a section of berths from the city. This program doesn't involve free berthing anyways. Its a community outreach program. The boat owners involved donate their time but still pay for their own slips.

[packsaddle 753]

I often confuse 'spin' with 'lies'.

My feelings are similar to Gern's on this. Everyone should pay for services rendered. Moreover, I'd remove all tax-exemptions for that matter, and have all persons and organizations subject to the same tax liabilities, no exceptions.

[CubsRgr8 10]

If other non-profit groups are provided free berthing, this turns into an equal access question. How is this different than the the ruling that requires school districts (which are political entities of government) to provide equal access to all user groups if they provide it to one?

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

The city doesn't provide free berthing to non-profit organizations per se; it offers free berths to organizations that meet several criteria, one of which is being a non-profit organization. Another criterion is meeting the city's nondiscrimination policy (and every organization must meet this standard; the Sea Scouts are being treated the same as everyone else). Another criterion is offering some sort of public service in exchange for the free berths, and that this service not substancially duplicate the services of a group that is already getting free berths.

 

That's part of why the organization must follow the city's nondiscrimination policy - all members of the public are effectively subsidizing the free berths, so the services offered must be available to the general public. Since gays and atheists can't join the Sea Scouts, they can't benefit from the public service the Sea Scouts are supposed to be offering to the general public, and these public services are why the city offers free berths in the first place - because the public is supposed to get a benefit in return.

 

Following the BSA's argument to its logical conclusion, any and every organization (even organizations of just one person) must be given free berths simply for the asking, because any organization could restrict their membership to be just their own members (under their first amendment right of association), and the general public would never get any benefits from such an organization because they can't join.

[evmori 11]

OK so the public is to get some benefit from the non profit. How does that translate they have be a member of the non profit to get benefit from it? One can receive the benefit of the works a non profit does & never be a member.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

Ed, how are gay and atheist kids supposed to benefit from the Sea Scouts if they can't join?

[evmori 11]

Merlyn,

Why do they have to join to get the benefit of what the Sea Scouts do? Do you know what benefit they offer to the public? Benefiting the public doesn't translate to membership.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[packsaddle 753]

Ed, years ago when I was CM the pack would do an annual cleanup at local public access areas. The public benefitted from our service every one of those years. But we didn't get free use of the ramps and didn't expect such. But the local university got a free pass for class use. I am OK with that but I would still prefer that everyone paid, no exceptions. Or am I missing something here?

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

Yes Ed, I've actually read a lot of the court documents on this case, and, as is perfectly obvious, the public service that the Sea Scouts offered was their Sea Scouts program. Unfortunately, this program isn't available to gays and atheists, which puts it in direct conflict with the city's nondiscrimination policy.

[evmori 11]

Merlyn,

So other than the court documents, you don't actually know what the Sea Scout do at the marina. You don't know if they have volunteered to maintain a section of the marina at no charge. Or volunteer to help with maintenance. Or anything like that. I'm don't know either. The point I am trying is one doesn't need to be a member of an organization to benefit from that organization.

 

I'm not a member of the Rotary but I benefit from what they do.

 

So, if this Sea Scout unit does do things at the marina that the public benefit from that don't require membership, they should get the same free berthing as other non profits.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[packsaddle 753]

Ed, as you admit, we don't know what any of those organizations do (outside of their existence) to benefit the public at the marina. If the government made some kind of quid pro quo arrangement with each organization then payment for berthing does exit in the form of 'in-kind' services. Failing such agreement, any such service is freely given (or freely withheld). Berthing, then, would also be freely given and the decision subject to reversal, as the situation seems to be. I still maintain that everyone should pay equally and have equal access to berthing (assuming they cough up the coins).

[evmori 11]

pack,

I agree everyone should pay for berthing including the BSA. My point is one doesn't need to be a member of an organization to realize the benefits of the organization. Hence, this can't be used as part of the argument for revoking free berthing to the BSA.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

Ed, you can remain ignorant if you like; I actually read up on BSA court cases, and any services the Sea Scouts offered would certainly be spelled out in the court documents, as that's very pertinent to the litigation. And yes, membership in the Sea Scouts is precisely the public benefit they offered in exchange for free berths.

[CubsRgr8 10]

Merlyn,

 

I don't think your answer negates my contention that this is a matter of equal access. Government cannot impose requirements (no matter how well intended) that contradict constitutional rights. Similar to school facilties usage, government must treat all users equally, or allow no users.

 

Also, what are the City's requirements of non-profits in order to obtain free berthing at the marina?

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

This isn't a case of equal access, the city has several requirements, all of which must be met:

1) be a non-profit organization

2) offer services to the general public (that don't substantially duplicate what another organization offers)

3) follow the city's nondiscrimination rules in those services offered in (2)