When classes are out, religious clubs increasingly are in

[Hunt 11]

I asked my son which of the three changes he thought would have the most radical effects, and he responded that it was obvious that letting girls in would be the most radical. He then went on to say that this was the change he supported. Interestingly, ronvo, I think a lot of people would feel the opposite of you: let the girls in, but keep gays and atheists out. My personal view (if anyone cares) is that BSA should keep the religion requirement, but leave the question of girls and gays up to COs.

The point of my prior post is that we shouldn't confuse arguments based on principle with those based on predictions of pragmatic effect--the arguments based on effect tend to be overstated, in my view, and thus not very persuasive.

[Rooster7 11]

Hunt,

 

How old is your son? 15? 16?

 

My point

 

Asking the boys (most notably those 15 and older) if theyd like to see girls introduced into the BSA (i.e. would you like a teenaged girl or two sleeping in the tent next to yours), is akin to asking a fox if hed consider inviting a few hens into his skulk. The resulting answer is predictable, but it doesnt guarantee a nice outcome especially for the hens.

 

As to god and gays while many here have boldly stated that these issues are relatively minor in their impact, I doubt if anyone can truly gage and verify such a remark beyond their local sphere of influence. That is, Troop 1 in Hawaii has no idea how these issues affect Troop 9999 in Arkansas. This statement as perceived by some folks is a door, which a few wish to open and scream, local option! However, it truly is not. This fact - that some folks are moved by these tenants, and some or not only provides dissenters with some food for thought for which they can offer up to the current powers-to-be. Its not a mandate for anything. Its is what it is.

 

The organization has no obligation to respond to popular opinion, nor should it. Even if it can be proven that a majority of members feel differently, we are not the overseers. The BSA did not draft us. No one was tricked into agreeing with the organizations values. We agreed willingly when we volunteered to be leaders. We are not equal partners with those who cast the vision. We are the volunteers who agreed to carry out the vision.

 

Having said the above, we are free to leave the organization if/when it changes. And conversely, we can leave if/when it refuses to change. Both options are valid. But dont tell me because x number or y percent of volunteers believe z, the BSA should embrace the same. Democracy should be fought for, and promoted, in all countries. Its the only way to govern a nation fairly. However, a private organization is not a nation of people. We ought not to try to make it otherwise. This has been said numerous times and ways, but if you dont like a private organization and it doesnt change to your taste, then eventually you should take the hint and take a hike. Find or build your own organization according to your values. Dont attempt to high jack an existing organization. Its just plain un-American.

 

[Prairie_Scouter 10]

It'd be really interesting to do a truly unbiased, objective survey of the BSA membership, Scouts and adults, to see where we all sit on these issues. I honestly don't know what the results would be, but I expect you'd have extreme views on either end with a vast majority in the middle who don't really care much and are more interested in the day to day Scouting "stuff". How the actual results would turn out is anyone's guess.

 

 

[Hunt 11]

"Asking the boys (most notably those 15 and older) if theyd like to see girls introduced into the BSA (i.e. would you like a teenaged girl or two sleeping in the tent next to yours), is akin to asking a fox if hed consider inviting a few hens into his skulk. The resulting answer is predictable, but it doesnt guarantee a nice outcome especially for the hens."

 

I don't know, Rooster--maybe my son has a higher moral character than boys you know. His explanation for his view was that the Girl Scouts don't provide the same quality of activities, and that girls would benefit from being in BSA. I will also point out that boys and girls over 14 can already be together in Venturing Crews, so I guess BSA is not as convinced of the "predictable" results as you are.

 

I would also suggest that I haven't "screamed" local option. If you think a measured discussion is "screaming," then you ought to check your own rhetoric.

[Rooster7 11]

Hunt,

 

Have you stooped to baiting? I thought we were engaged in a thoughtful debate.

 

Let me clarify

 

As to the high moral standards of the boys you know verses the ones I know please. Im sure the boys we know are very similar. Now, you may choose to see things one way, and I another but lets not compare children. Thats just a little tacky.

 

When I wrote scream, I did not intend folks to take it literally. It was meant to convey that folks believe passionately that they have a right to demand the local option, because peoples convictions on these issues vary from troop to troop.

 

I will also point out that boys and girls over 14 can already be together in Venturing Crews, so I guess BSA is not as convinced of the "predictable" results as you are.

 

Evidently true. But that doesnt make it a wise decision. I dont know much about Venturing Crews, so I cant comment.

 

You have labeled my thoughts on this matter as mere rhetoric. Apparent this stems from my comment which concluded with, "it doesnt guarantee a nice outcome especially for the hens." Our culture, the daily news, and my common sense - tells me that boys and girls are attracted to one another and are seeking to gratify that attraction at an epidemic rate. Dismiss my concerns as rhetoric if it allows you to sleep well. But to return in kind I must say that your lack of concern regarding this matter is extremely nave, at best.

(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[Kahuna 172]

I don't think morality has that much to do with it. My experience with coed Venture crews, include Sea Scouts, is that the biggest problem they have is when boy members date girl members, then break up. Creates awkward situations. Of course, you have to be out of your mind to not consider the attraction factor and take precautions. Actually, the working together seems to create a mutual respect that probably prevents some of the problems you might otherwise imagine.

[Hunt 11]

Rooster, I just didn't appreciate your comparing my son to a fox inviting hens into his "skulk." I would hope that most Boy Scouts would not behave like animals in such a situation, and I also hope most of them don't think of girls as prey. Of course, again, your experience may differ.

 

Also: "When I wrote scream, I did not intend folks to take it literally. It was meant to convey that folks believe passionately that they have a right to demand the local option, because peoples convictions on these issues vary from troop to troop."

 

Baloney. You were just amping up the rhetoric, as you continue to do above when you use the term "demand." Who demanded local option? Who screamed?

[Rooster7 11]

A group of foxes is a skulk. I'm not sure what you thought it was, but you sure make it sound a lot more sinister. And my reference was to boys in general, not just your son.

 

Perhaps you're right. Our experiences may be quite different. I remember my teenaged years. Most of the time, when I thought about girls it didn't involve outdoor adventure and service projects. However, no matter how undisciplined my thoughts were, somehow I doubt I was in the minority...at least among the male population.

 

Okay, so we've established that "scream" and "demand", rubs you the wrong way. How do you feel about "stomp their feet and cry"?