Legalizing Illegal immigrants

[Rooster7 11]

I have had my second cup of coffee and my opinion remains the same. This debate is no longer talking about the rightness or wrongness of torture. Its talking about the rightness or wrongness of America and how it reacted to 9-11. LongHauls words ring hollow to me. Hes implying that we conducted ourselves as nation in such a way that the 9-11 attack warrants some kind of self-examination to determine whether or not their anger was justifiable. His words are ridiculous and insulting to the millions of Americans who have built this nation. Furthermore, intentional or not, they serve to endanger and demoralize those serving in the military today. I stand by my last post I am disgusted by this viewpoint and those who spread it. To be clear - he's free to express it, but I am certainly free to be repulsed by it as well.

[SR540Beaver 116]

Allow me to post an excerpt of Pat Buchanan's most recent column. Many people like to marginalize Buchanan as some sort of nut job at best and an anti-semite at worst. Both views are equally wrong. There was a time in my younger days when I couldn't stand the man. I think part of the problem with the way he is viewed is that he is far more intellectual than most of us and he looks at a deeper, wider and bigger picture than most of us are capable of seeing. Buchanan has an understanding of history and politics that most of will never be able to attain. He has actually worked in the White House and advised Reagan. In short, the man is no light weight. Conservatives and liberals would both do well to set up and take notice when he speaks. In this day and age of 24 hour cable news opinion shows and talk radio where people compete with one another for dollars and ratings and try to over simplify world events into easy black and white slogans, it is valuable to have people like Buchanan who tells it like it actually is. You can't get much more conservative than Pat Buchanan.

 

Here is a link to the whole article entitled "The crisis of the GOP".

 

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47344

 

Here is the pertinent excerpt:

 

In foreign policy, Bush I was an internationalist out to build a "New World Order" after the Cold War. However, post-9/11, Bush II converted to a neoconservatism that calls for unilateral American intervention in the Middle East and the Islamic world to bring down dictators and establish democratic rule.

 

Thus, in March 2003, Bush, in perhaps the greatest strategic blunder in U.S. history, invaded an Arab nation that had not attacked us, did not want war with us and did not threaten us to strip it of weapons we now know it did not have.

 

Result: Shia and Kurds have been liberated from Saddam, but Iran has a new ally in southern Iraq, Osama has a new base camp in the Sunni Triangle, the Arab and Islamic world has been radicalized against the United States, and copy-cat killers of al-Qaida have been targeting our remaining allies in Europe and the Middle East: Spain, Britain, Egypt and Jordan. And, lest we forget, 2,055 Americans are dead and Walter Reed is filling up.

 

True to the neoconservative creed, Bush has launched a global crusade for democracy that is now bringing ever closer to power Hamas in Gaza and the West Bank, Hezbollah in Lebanon, the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt and Syria, and Shia fundamentalists in Baghdad and Basra.

 

Democratic imperialism is still imperialism. To Islamic peoples, whether the Crusaders come in the name of God or in the name of democracy, they are still Crusaders.

 

[Prairie_Scouter 10]

Well, ok, as long as we're playing mind experiment....

 

Your son gets his Eagle and goes away to college. He studies foreign cultures and decides that he likes the historical underpinnings of the life of the Middle East bedouins. As part of a student exchange, he's placed in a university in the Middle East that does regular field trips to study the life of the natives. Your son disappears one day. Two years later you find out that he accidentally spent some time with a group who, among its members, had a terrorist known to the military, but no one else. Your son, as a known associate of this individual, was arrested shortly before a suspected upcoming terrorist attack. He's taken to a secret site in Europe, and tortured to measure the extent of his knowledge. He says nothing, but just in case, he's locked up in a solitary cell for the next two years. One day, the military says "oops", and releases him. You haven't heard from him in two years, and he's had no access to counsel to defend himself.

 

Are you a happy supporter of the current U.S. policy then?

 

Extreme situations sometime require extreme measures, but a line has to be drawn in the sand somewhere, and we have to say "we will not cross this line". Otherwise, we are no better than our enemies.

 

The scenarios we draw up here would all make fine TV movies, but I think that the reality is that it doesn't happen as often as we might think. As a country, we should go on record as valuing human rights and supporting the Geneva Conventions, not looking for loopholes to crawl through. Heck, we should at least give the APPEARANCE of taking the high moral ground, and not saying "we can be just as dirty as you".

[Rooster7 11]

We waited patiently for nearly 30 years after Munich, for the Muslim world to denounce terrorism and to purge their ranks of the despicable fiends that perpetrate and spread such violence. While we waited, these radicals have grown significantly in number, dramatically increased their influence throughout the Middle East and other areas of the world, and steadily increased the scope and frequency of their attacks. Most of the free world wants to act like an ostrich. We may not have as many allies as Id like but Im convinced that we need to act today. By the time the French realize theres a problem, theyll be turning the Basilica into a mosque and veils will become the new fashion statement in Paris.

[BrentAllen 10]

Long-Haul,

I love how the muslims over there hate us for our western ways, while they wear our latest fashions and footwear, and enjoy our latest technological advances. They claim to hate us because we are infidels, and killing us earns them special rewards with Allah. Do you have more insight into the problem? They were hating us and killing us long before we entered Iraq. World Trade Center bombing in 1993, USS Cole bombing. Why is that, exactly?

Please tell us, with your infinite wisdom, how we should end this conflict and resolve all our differences? What concessions should the evil US make to build bridges with these wonderful, peaceful people? Should we destroy all of our Christian churches, and outlaw Christianity? The same with Judaism? I am so ready to hear how we can appease the righteous Al-Qaeda.

[LongHaul 10]

Rooster7,

How is trying to understand why something happened or what motivated some one or some group to do a thing justifying it? Where in anything Ive written in any post have I condoned, or justified violence committed by any group? Why do so many people believe that disagreeing with a current administrations policies constitutes un-American activities? The president is not America. The military is not America. One can actually support the men and women in uniform and still disagree with the mission they have been given. You question whether I am trying to justify 9-11 in a manner that implies that trying to justify it would be a bad thing yet you use 9-11 to justify our response to it. A small group of individuals perpetrated an act of violence against us so that justifies our invading sovereign states, bombing cities, killing civilians, imposing our cultural standards on anyone in our path, everything is justified because of 9-11. However NOTHING we might have done could possible be grounds for what they did on 9-11. Now we are discussing torture and justify it with 9-11. Everything comes back to 9-11 except that we now know that Bush had plans to invade Iraq before 9-11. He had plans to oust Saddam Hussein before some non Iraqis perpetrated 9-11. After 9-11 all air travel was stopped except the planes carrying the Bin Laden family out of our country. Bin Laden was our boy when we were fighting the Russians in Afghanistan. We supported the Taliban. We supplied arms and supplies to the resistance and when they finally won through we up and left them. Large portions of the male population of Afghanistan between 14 and 50 were dead or maimed. Where were our humanitarian efforts to help rebuild and stabilize the country after the Russians were ousted? We want to bring Democracy to the world even if it means killing everyone that disagrees with our definition of it.

 

You mention Munich and the Muslim world as if all Muslims were responsible, as if all Muslims condone what was done, as if all Muslims support what was done. Why is it so hard to understand that those same people lump us together. Everything that the West has done to them culturally is blamed on America, with the West including any great power. Munich was an Arab/ Israeli issue but you want to make it a Muslim issue. When the decision was made to take the land which became the state of Israel away from the people that owned it at the time and give it to the new state of Israel do you believe it was a decision made by Muslims? A decision made by Arabs? It was a decision made by those with the military might to enforce their will upon the people in the region. What recourse did the Muslims and Arabs have? Why is it so hard to understand the hatred that results from acts of aggression. You seem to understand the rage caused by 9-11 what if they didnt destroy the Trade Center but instead successfully invaded and took control of New York State. Would you be in favor of just letting them have it or would you support retaliatory strikes to retake our homeland? We are discussing torture as being acceptable would terrorism be acceptable in an effort to retake our homeland? At what point would you say stop the fight?

Lastly if President Bush is so right in his actions why hasnt the Republican Congress declared war? We use the word indiscriminately and at will but all of us know that war can only be declared by Congress and it hasnt, why not. If so many Americans support this action why not legitimize it with an act of Congress?

LongHaul

(This message has been edited by LongHaul)(This message has been edited by LongHaul)

[LongHaul 10]

BrentAllen,

        I would suggest you brush up on our National Foreign Policy with regards to the middle eastern countries in question. What have we done over the last 100 years to help the common man find a forum for his needs and grievances. What have we done to better the lives of the common people in the countries we are so determined to free now? Look back at which governments we supported with monetary aid and military training and supplies. Look at how our actions have impacted the lives of the common citizen. You may get some idea as to why we are once again the ugly American. Just for fun research The School of the Americas used to be run in your neck of the woods.

     I wonder if President Bushs desire to oust the dictators and bring democracy to these people extends to dethroning the royal family in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. You mention the thousands of innocent men , women and children killed on 9-11, how many innocent men women and children do you think died in the streets of Bagdad during Desert Storm? Do you think they were firing those Scuds from the roof tops? Were there factories and munitions stores in downtown? Or were we trying to demoralize our opposition and the men, women, and children killed in the process were just collateral damage? We insist on imposing our will on others and then are outraged when they retaliate in the only way open to them.

 LongHaul

[BrentAllen 10]

LongHaul,

I don't even know where to begin with someone who thinks Michael Moore tells the gospel truth. You should really get some perspectives other than just the far, far left.

First, the bin Laden family was not flown out of the country during the two days after 9/11. They were flown around IN the country, by the FBI, to gathering points, for their safety. And there were other flights during that period as well, mainly to get Saudi officials out of the country.

Sorry, I won't go along with the "blame America first" crowd. You can choose sides, and so can I. I don't recall the Israelis saying they wanted to kill all Muslims, while the Palestinians and others have stated loudly and clearly their goal is to drive the Israelis into the sea. You can try to call it an occupation, but many of those lines were drawn back in the 1940's by the UN. Surely you think the UN is the great arbiter on the planet!

Just for fun, let's say everything you posted is correct. We have a bunch of hacked-off Muslims ready to kill us. What does LongHaul recommend we do? Specifically. I keep asking these questions, but never get any answers.

[LongHaul 10]

BrentAllen,

           Surely you think the UN is the great arbiter on the planet! Not even close.  Have you ever thought about the possibility that, given your views and positions on these isssues, that if you had been born in Bagdad instead of America you'd be a terrorist?Pushing the Israelis into the sea is how one would get them out of the area. Everywhere else is Muslim. Yes this was done in the 1940s ,again the short memory ,like 1940s is so long ago that it doesnt matter anymore. To the people of the middle east it matters. Hey the Israelis claim to the land is that God gave it to them several THOUSAND years ago. This is all politics, it has nothing to do with justice, freedom or democracy, its politics. What would I suggest we do? Realistically we cant do anything to correct this situation because we are not the only ones involved. What we can do to work toward a solution is find out what the other side really wants. I dont believe the Muslim Nation wants to exterminate everyone else on the planet. I think they want to be allowed to live their lives their way without interference.   The question would be who do we talk to? The governments we have helped to keep in power dont represent the people of their countries they represent those in power. You can kill people but you cant kill ideas. You can not stop hatred with a bullet you create it with bullets. As long as we refuse to accept responsibility for our foreign policies we will have foreign enemies. What do you propose we do, kill all the Muslims just to be sure?

 LongHaul

[OldGreyEagle 5]

"if everybody is thinking alike then nobody is thinking".

 

General George S. Patton, Jr.

American Army Officier and Philospher

 

(this one we got covered)

[packsaddle 753]

LongHaul, SOA is a ways south of Brent, down at Benning. Last time I was there it was still in operation. I think it still is.

[Hunt 11]

I am genuinely perplexed that Rooster, of all people, is championing moral relativism. Are there no values that you wouldn't abandon to "save lives?" Would you kill or torture an innocent person in order to influence the person with information? Would you deny your religious faith in order to save the lives of you and your family? I admit that many people's values would waver and probably crumble in the face of terrible choices--but would you really have contempt for a person whose values didn't waver in such a situation?

[Rooster7 11]

As I previously indicated, I do believe in absolute moral standards those established by the God of the Bible.

 

However, here are some disclaimers:

 

1) I am not always able to discern what Gods will is for a given situation. While I believe in Gods perfect law, I do not always understand how and when it should be applied.

2) While I do not believe in moral relativism, circumstances and purpose do define the nature of an act. That is to say, while I do not believe its wrong to shoot and kill a deer for food. I do believe its wrong to shoot a deer in its legs for sport.

3) Given my selfish desires, even if I understand what Gods will is, I am not confident that I will always act accordingly.

 

Is it wrong to torture innocent people?

Of course!

 

But I dont view Iraqi insurgents as being innocent people.

 

Is it wrong to torture people for no reason?

Of course!

 

But Im convinced we are not interrogating Iraqi terrorists for fun, but for information. Furthermore, I like to believe that we have good evidence that these individuals are holding the information that we are seeking.

 

Should there be a compelling reason wherever torture is applied?

Absolutely!

 

With that said, saving the lives of innocent people seems rather compelling to me.

 

Now, despite the aboveIs it possible that God views all torture as being wrong?

 

If I knew the answer to that question, I would state it unashamedly. If it makes you feel better, I tend to believe that He does. However, depending on the circumstances, I can see myself falling prey to my third disclaimer. Does that mean I dont believe in moral absolutes? No. It means - Im a sinner and sometimes I struggle to keep Gods law.

 

BTW, my "contempt" is not for anyone's resolve to remain faithful to a moral standard (perceived or real). My contempt is for a false, self-serving portrayal of our nation, which defames our history, our military, and our current and past presidents. This is what I find disgusting.(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[Hunt 11]

Thinking it's OK to torture "insurgents" because they aren't "innocent" is pretty far down the slippery slope, in my opinion. First of all, who's deciding that they are "insurgents?" That they're not "innocent?" That torturing them has a reasonable likelihood of "saving lives?" It's certainly not a court, and there doesn't seem to be any review of these decisions, either. I realize that innocent people get hurt and killed in wars--but the deliberate torturing of a person who has never been convicted of any crime is so un-American it makes me ill. I have to say that the news of secret torture prisons run by the CIA really shocked me. Have we really sunk this far?

[Rooster7 11]

I dont think I quite said what you implied. Nonetheless, I do understand the call for torture, given the nature of our enemy, the situation in Iraq, and the terror that they seek to inflict upon our nation. Im not advocating it. In terms of its morality, Im really not sure what I believe. But I understand why our nation might employ it. Furthermore, I think what some folks call torture is a real stretch. A case in point is the story shared by BrentAllen about the Captain firing his sidearm.