Unbiased history/information sources?

[Prairie_Scouter 10]

There are always plenty of discussions in regards to the participation in Scouting by gays and atheists. I'm trying to step back from that a bit and look into the history behind it, and find out how it got to be this way.

 

I understand that some of the original wording that formed BSA talked about a "belief in God" or "a god" or something like that. Correct? Has BSA always been so vehement,tho, in it's actions to make sure that atheists aren't allowed in? Is that more recent?

 

Similarly, for gays, I don't believe that there's anything explicitly said anywhere that gays can't be good Scouts or leaders. I'm told that it was "kind of" always there, but that it really got "hot" sometime in the 1970's. I've heard stories about the Mormons forcing the issue at some point.

 

BSA's headquarters used to be in the NorthEast, I think, and used to be run by people that were fairly moderate in their views, I think. If that's correct, than how did we get to a point where we've got what appear to be conservative Christians running the organization to the point that there were able to move the headquarters to the middle of the Bible Belt? I've heard that the Board is mostly a figurehead, and the real decisions are made by some sub-committee that makes up all these policies. True? Close?

 

How could change be enacted within BSA, if there was a desire to do so?

 

Anyway, I'm looking for thoughts; I'm looking for unbiased sources to try and figure out what's going on.

[Bob White 20]

I do not think unbiased thoughts can exist. But thats just my unbiased opinion.

 

I am certain that there isn't anyone on this forum who can can answer all those questions. But I am in awe of the copnclusions you put forward based on your own answers to questions that you say you are seeking answers to.

 

For instance "where we've got what appear to be conservative Christians running the organization to the point that there were able to move the headquarters to the middle of the Bible Belt?"

 

Have you ever looked at map of the Bible belt? Dallas is at the far left end, not in the center. (Norther Alabama and Georgia are in the Center.) And the office is in Irving because the land that was donated to the BSA is there. Now if that isn't a right wing Christian conspiracy then I don't know what is.

 

If you really want unbiased answers you are going to need to do some work on your end to come up with some unbiased questions.

 

BW

 

 

[acco40 95]

First, remember there is the BSA and there is Scouting. One is local (America) and one is global. I'll take your questions at face value and assume you meant the BS of America only.

 

Yes, the BSA used to be headquartered in the northeast. In 1911, the first Boy Scout national office was opened in New York (7 employees). In 1927 National office moved to 2 Park Avenue in New York. 1954 National office moves to New Jersey. In 1979 the National Headquarters moved to Irving, Texas (and I think it was partly because a fire destroyed the New Jersey offices?)

 

As for policy changes or interpretations, the Scout Oath and Law include "morally straight" and "clean." It was only recently that the phase morally straight was interpreted as heterosexual. Same with clean. It can be argued that the issue was raised because of the current (last 10 years or less) legislation going on. The BSA DOES change with the times (regardless of the timeless values phrase). I think they will change on the homosexual issue before they change their religious stance (just a guess). To give a perspective on different BSA thoughts see below:

 

1930 The first woman was registered in the BSA in the New York Area Council as a Den Mother in March.

 

1972 Silver Fawn award discontinued (sort of a "female" Silver Beaver)

 

1973 Women allowed to become Cubmasters

 

1976 BSA allows women to attend Wood Badge

 

1976 Den Mother title dropped (yes men were den mothers, literature changed to den leaders)

 

1977 BSA's National Executive Board decides to admit women as leaders OTHER than Scoutmasters or Assistants, as WEBELOS Den Leaders or Assistants, or as Friends and Counselors to Lone Scouts.

 

1978 Revised God and Country program announced

 

1988 OA Chiefs decide to allow female Explorers and Exploring leaders to serve as Order of the Arrow members.

 

1989 BSA National Executive Board removed the "female exclusion" from Scouting totally, starting with the fall of 1989. (After winning a Supreme Court decision in favor of the policy excluding females.)

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

While they obviously don't like the BSA's discriminatory policies, http://www.bsa-discrimination.org has a lot of chronological information and things like legal documents and newspaper articles. You can balance that off with http://www.bsalegal.org , which also has a lot of legal documents and newspaper articles.

[Hunt 11]

There's an implication in the first post in this thread that BSA's membership requirements (belief in god, no avowed homosexuality) may have come belatedly. While it may be the case that these requirements have been stated more explicitly in recent years, I don't think that's because of a change in BSA--it's because they didn't need to be stated 30 years ago. I'm quite confident that if you could get into your time machine and go back to the early 1970s when I was a Scout, and could ask the leaders of BSA if they allowed atheists or homosexuals to be members or leaders, they would have looked at you like you were insane. I mean, it was a really big deal when BSA changed its rules to let women be leaders. The Stonewall riots in New York--the real beginning of the gay rights movement--were in 1969, and it was a long time before the idea of gay rights gained much acceptance in most of America. The very idea of gay scout leaders would have seemed totally outrageous to the vast majority of Americans at the time (maybe it still does, although I don't think the majority is as vast as it would have been 30 years ago).

[Eamonn 61]

Peter Applebome,in Scout's Honor does try to look at some of these questions and he has given his take when he tries to provide answers.

I was schooled (Educated might be too strong a term) in England. I love English History, in fact I taught it for a while. When I was in School English History was very slanted and very pro-Britain and the British Empire, so much so that we were taught that the "Sun never went down on the empire" We never spent much time looking at places where we got our butts kicked but we as students were made feel good about places were we taught the natives how to play cricket and read the Bible. Being as the Americas were settled by people who came here in the first place to get away from how we thought they should read the Bible and cricket never caught on, American history was skipped over at a great rate of knots.

My take on the BSA and it is just my take.

Scouting type programs were springing up all over the place in the early 1900's. In England we had the Boy's Brigade (BP was a member) The Church Lads Brigade. Of course Ernest Thompson Seton (Who was born in England) and his The Woodcraft Indians. He in fact ran camps for boys in the UK before BP did his thing at Brownsea.

Seaton had some unconventional approaches that were quite different than the rather preachy Boys' Brigade or the more regimented Boy Scouts that Baden-Powell was to organize. Seaton did not want the organization used for over moral indoctrination although he felt that an experience with nature would have a kind of cathartic impact upon the soul.

The Woodcraft Indians lacked a supervisory mechanism or a central organization capable of promoting the program. Almost all tribes operated within the YMCA. This loose organization made it virtually impossible for them to compete effectively with the BSA. Another major problem was the lack of commitment to technological growth and progress. This was a key tenant of middle-class American culture. Boys might enjoy naturing outings, but few American boys wanted to make that their exclusive boyhood activities. Many were also fascinated by the many technical advances that were occurring and were interested in a program that could help them pursue some if the new technologies. The absence of a program moral indoctrination was also a weakness in the eyes of many adults.

American Daniel Carter Beard founded the Sons of Daniel Boone in 1905.

The Sons of Daniel Boone was in the 1900's, the largest boys organization in America. In many ways the movement was instep with the future Boy Scout movement. The Sons of Daniel Boone in particular preached patriotism, in sharp contrast with the other principal precursor group, Ernest Thompson Seaton's Woodcrafy Indians. Beard was a strong advocate of Scouting and joined his organization with the Boy Scouts of America.

Where as Scouting in England was not very well organized, some Boys Brigade and Church Lads Brigades had Scout Patrols, which at one time was how BP seen Scouting. Not as a stand alone organization but a program working with in other Boy's youth groups. However when Scouting For Boy's and Aids to Scoutmastership hit the streets many Boys started forming their own Patrols and they recruited the adults. Baden Powell a national hero was a solider who had little or no real experiences running a youth organization. Add to this he didn't have very much money. Unlike William D. Boyce. Boyce Boyce was a 51 year-old newspaper and magazine publisher from Chicago, Illinois.newspaper and magazine publisher from Chicago, Illinois who after getting lost in a thick London fog in 1910 was escorted to his destination by the famed unknown Boy Scout. Boyce at the time had never even heard of Boy Scouting, but was so impressed that when he returned to America he helped found the Boys Scouts of America (BSA). He used his business skills to help create the most important youth organization in the United States. Boyce's generous financial contributions were critical at the early stages of the program. His donations came with only one condition, the BSA would include all boys, regardless of race or creed. As a result of clashes with BSA executive James West, he eventually withdrew from the BSA. Boyce was in the business of selling papers he saw the potential of using boys to sell his papers and he, more than many other publishers, made some effort to look after their welfare. He had 30,000 boy-agents helping to sell his weeklies. The boys played a major role in his business success. He also came to keenly appreciate their needs.

Boyce, as soon as he returned home to Chicago, began working on an American Scouting organization. He discussed the idea with his friend, Colin H. Livingstone, of Washington, D.C., and with other people in Washington, DC. Together only four months after the foggy encounter with the unknown Scout in London, they established a new corporation--the Boy Scouts of America--the BSA.

Boyce used much of the organization of Baden Powell's Boy Scouts, but added Indian lore to the program. He became the "Chief Totem" and launched the program. His first effort failed because of poor organization. He received valuable advise from YMCA executives Edgar Robinson, J.A. Van Dis, and Dr. L.L. Doggett, who were also interested in the Scout movement.

Boyce was a businessman with an interest in youth work. His critical contribution to Scouting was to incorporate the BSA as a business. He incorporated the organization, choosing Washington, DC, rather than Chicago to emphasize its national character. It was in Washington that the BSA was incorporated on February 8, 1910. He provided essential funding for the fledgling organization. Boyce's generous financial contributions were critical at this stage. His donations came with only one condition, the BSA would include all boys, regardless of race or creed.

Edgar Robinson was a YMCA youth worker. Some YMCA chapters were using Scouting materials and programs. He was concerned about their ability to continue doing so when he read that William Randolph Hearst and Boyce were incorporating Scout associations. He offered to manage the launch of the BSA for Boyce. In fact Boyce was unsure how to turn the BSA into a functioning youth operation. He decided to cooperate with Robinson and the YMCA. It was this group led by Robinson that was primarily responsible for creating an efficient national organization in there critical first year of Scouting.Then there of course was James E. West an attorney active with juvenile cases in Washington DC. He was recruited in 1911 as Executive Secretary, in part because Boyce wanted the BSA based in national capital to demonstrate the organization's national character. West changed his title to Chief Scout Executive. He more than any other person created a well-organized national structure that was a key to the BSA's growth and reputation. He intended to make Scouting only a temporary diversion from his legal career, but that changed with the tremendous growth of the movement. West remained Chief Scout Executive from 1911 until he retired in 1943. Scouting founder William D. Boyce did not get along with West. Boyce saw Scouting has his own organization. As a result of the quarrel and differences of opinion, West had Boyce's name virtually deleted from BSA records. West also had problems with Ernest Thompson Seaton another founder of the Scouting movement. Both Seaton and West were strong-willed individuals. They had conflicting ideas on how Scouting should develop. Seton was deeply committed to the ethos of Scouting saw West as a city lawyer and simple administrator/ He challenged West's authority to control the young program's development. West controlled the BSA organization and power base, and forced Seton out in 1916. Seaton's writing was removed from the Boy Scout Handbook. Despite Seaton's departure, like Boyce, these men left an indelible impression on American Scouting. West for many years resisted the creation of a Cubbing program for younger boys.

West had a very hard childhood Both of James West's parents died before he was 7 years old, so he was sent to live in an orphanage in Washington, D.C.

Soon after, tuberculosis germs attacked one of his hips and knees. He spent two years in the hospital and was left with a permanent limp.

It was a hard life at the orphanage, but it made James West tough. At times he served as handyman, laundry operator, librarian, night watchman, and chicken raiser.

He earned a law degree as a young man. In his spare time West took on volunteer jobs for kids. He helped to set up Washington's first juvenile court so that children would not have to be tried in adult courts.

He had a big part in building the city's playgrounds. He helped form the Child Rescue League, which placed 2,000 children in foster homes. In 1910, when the leaders of the new BSA asked West to be their chief executive, he did not want to take the job. Finally he agreed to, serve for six months. The six months stretched into 32 years.

West was a hard-driving executive and a demanding boss. One minute he would be chewing out an employee, the next, patting him on the back. From 1922 until his retirement in 1943, James West was editor of Boys' Life as well as Chief Scout Executive.

James West's desire to run the BSA in a businesslike manner did not always sit well with Ernest Seton and Daniel Beard.

After clashing with James West several times, Seton left the BSA in 1915. He blasted West as a "man of great executive ability, but without knowledge of the activities of boys; who has no point of contact with boys, and who, I might say, has never seen the blue sky in his life."

It seems that West was not a very likable fellow. Baden Powell and West did not get on and did clash over religious issues. West of course won in the USA. The very close links with the YMCA along with the wording of the Scout Oath has meant that God has been in the BSA from the beginning. BP, and the British Scout movement did at one time allow an "Outlander Promise" which does not mention God or the King, to the best of my knowledge this has never been allowed in the BSA.

Eamonn.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Prairie_Scouter 10]

Wow, thanks, guys, for all the thoughts. Very interesting.

 

To Bob...

No reason to be in "awe", those comments of mine weren't "conclusions" as much as they were observations based on BSA national's behavior. And, not just "saying" I'm asking questions; I'm looking for somewhat objective sources of the history behind what appears to be BSA actions. What my own feelings are as I look into that information are really kind of irrelevent. And, as far as the Bible Belt goes, there's the geographical center of the Bible Belt, and the cultural center; I don't really know where either is. Regardless, I only meant "center" as a figure of speech. Regards the move to Texas, they could have gotten the location donated for any number of reasons. If it was donated by a conservative group based on some implicit agreement by BSA to go along with their agenda, I think that that would be a problem. But, that's what I'm trying to understand. Thanks for your thoughts, tho; they are appreciated.

 

To Acco...

Yes, I did mean BSA, not worldwide Scouting. Everything I've read leads me to believe that at least on some aspects of the topics that have caused the political firestorm, BSA is out of step with Scouting worldwide. I agree that BSA does slowly change with the times, to some extent, anyway. I'd like them to become less of a political firebrand. I'd also like them to really be non-denominational; it just seems to me that these days they are anything but that.

 

To Merlyn...

Thanks for the links. I've actually visited those, and others. Their information is certainly interesting, but like many of the environmental groups I support, you don't go there to get unbiased views, or even both sides of the story. The truth is in there somewhere, I'm sure.

 

To Hunt....

I think the questions I were asking weren't so much that these policies came along recently, although I could see where it could be read that way. The religious issue was always there. The gay issue came about, as far as I can tell, more recently, and as a result of a particular interpretation of Scout Law. I'm really just trying to track the history, and perhaps dig into the "whys" along the way. Not to alter my own views, necessarily, but to better understand how BSA is thinking.

 

To Eamonn..

THANK YOU! What an interesting post. Actually, I just recently got Scout's Honor from the library, but haven't had a chance to dig into it yet. And thanks for the historical perspective. I'm going to need to read that a couple of times I think :-) As you indicate, history is always written by the "winners", so you're not going to get an unbiased view there until very much later.

[acco40 95]

Eamonn, do you have any information on the Scouting program championed by William Randolph Hearst that competed with what was to become the BSA for the "scout" term?

[rpushies 10]

Hi Acco40,

 

Eamonn has a great breadth of knowledge of the early days of Scouting in America. Maybe I can shed some light on the William Randolph Hearst issue. Just like William D. Boyce, Hearst found the idea of Scouting to be appealing. Newspaper boys in the early part of the last century were an essential ingredient to the success of a newspaper. Hearst wanted to duplicate the influence that Boyce was having with newspaper carrying age boys, so he started the United States Boys Scouts (USBS). Like Boyce, Hearst gave considerable financial backing to his organization.

 

The fact that these two newspaper GIANTS threw their power and resources behind Scouting provided a huge amount of positive publicity for both "Scouting" organizations. During this time it was almost impossible to find a newspaper story about "Scouting" that was anything other than high praise. In 1913 the Ohio River Valley suffered some of the worst floods to that point in our history. Unlike recent natural disasters, the reports in newspapers then were rife with Scouts doing good deeds. These were HEADLINE STORIES about the good of Scouting. During this period in history newspapers had a tremendous affect on public opinion. There was not Internet, cable TV news, radion was still it its early development. Newspapers, print media was virtually the only source of news. So the opinion of the newspaper often became public opinion. It has been said that the unanimous vote of both houses of Congress for the Federal Charter granted by Congress to the Boy Scouts of America in 1916 was due to the strong public opinion in favor of Scouting. An opinion cultivated by men like Boyce and Hearst. Politicians were fearful of how a vote against Scouting would be received by their constituents back home. The fate of Scouting in America was determined in a California court case in which Lord Baden-Powell provided testimony by deposition. The Boy Scouts of America won.

 

As to the issue of God and Scouting. The twelfth point of the American Scout Law is a Scout is reverent and has been there since 1911. The British version does not have this point. It refers to being kind to animals because they are Gods creatures, but the concept of being reverent and faithful to God is not explicitly stated in the British version. So duty to God has a different place in the Boy Scouts of America, it is part of our Law. Also there are significant cultural differences between America and Europe that influence both the God and gay issue. As a general rule organized religion has a much stronger influence in America.

 

Now to address the changing importance of the God and gay issues in recent years. Scouting does not exist in a vacuum. As the values and mores of our society change, the relationship of Scoutings values change relative to how the change in society perceives our values. When I was a Boy Scout back in the 60s, Mr. B one of our assistant Scoutmasters was weird. We did not know what gay or homosexual meant as young boys then, he was just weird. Maybe the adults knew that he was gay but we, the Scouts did not. Gay just was not talked about then. Times change, now you have the topic of gays filtering through all aspects of our life. The issue of gays in Scouting has changed in part because the issue of gays has changed. If the topic of homosexuality was not discussed in public then, how could you expect to have a public discussion about homosexuals being involved in any organization then, much less the Boy Scouts. You cannot have a public discussion about something that is just not talked about and that was the way it was. Besides, men like Hearst and Boyce did not print articles about homosexuality because those stories did not sell newspapers. Stories about Mom, apple pie, American Flags and Boy Scouts did sell newspapers. Since articles on homosexuality were not printed, that subject did not become a part of public discourse. God, well God is an unpopular topic with many today. He is being attacked in all quarters, courthouse lobbies, the Pledge of Allegiance, school prayer the list goes on and on and on. Scouting gets dragged into the fray because we stand for something when it comes to God. If you dont stand for something, if you dont believe in something greater than yourself then the attackers will tend to leave you alone.

 

I for one see the struggle over gays and God to be a true test of what Scouting really stands for based on our values. In God we trust and God bless America.

 

Yours Truly in Scouting,

Rick Pushies

 

[Prairie_Scouter 10]

Rick,

I guess I was with you until right at the end. Thanks for your comments. I'll have to disagree with you on your last statement. If the struggle of gays and atheists is a test of what Scouting really stands for, I think I interpret that as saying that it's a fight for BSA's right to discriminate. Regardless of what any Supreme Court ruling says, I teach my sons that discrimination is wrong. It's wrong in general society and it's wrong within BSA. Getting a Court to agree that they're some sort of private club doesn't change that. Gays are almost an easy target for BSA because the country is so split over them. Say that Gays can't be good leaders because of what they are will get a good deal of support. But, let's go the next step. Catholic priests can't be considered good leader material because of their obvious problems. African-Americans? Sorry, very bad crime statistics. White males? Sorry, by any measure, the vast majority of pedophiles are white males. Women? Lucky to get in at all; I know someone who swears that all Girl Scout leaders are lesbians. It was news to my wife, believe me, she being a Girl Scout leader and all. People are going to believe what they want to believe; it's unfortunate that they have to use their beliefs to exclude those who don't agree.

[Miki101 14]

Actually rpushies,

 

Hearst founded the American Boy Scouts in June 1910, which changed their name to the United States Boy Scouts after the BSA received their Federal Charter in 1916 virtually locking up the trademark words "Scout(s)." Hearst himself withdrew from his ABS in December 1910 after he declared that his ABS Board of Directors had been using funds inappropriately.

[Eamonn 61]

Taking another look at Prairie_Scouter's original posting:

Prairie_Scouter

"I've heard that the Board is mostly a figurehead, and the real decisions are made by some sub-committee that makes up all these policies. True? Close? "

I don't serve on any of the National Boards I do know several people that do. The people I know are no dummies. One who is a very dear and close friend has a PhD. He is a very gifted, talented and generous chap. He has been in the BSA for a very long time. I don't know if he was a Cub Scout, I do know that he was a Boy Scout involved with the OA, worked on Summer camp staff, served at the unit, district and Council level and is a past Council President. He is a very intelligent person.I am sure that he thinks for himself, he has served on committees that have made a difference in the BSA.

I don't know if it is possible for him to be unbiased? Part of me thinks that he has been in Scouting (BSA) for such a long time and he has such a love for this organization that this will cloud his thinking.

Yes he does serve on sub committees that put a lot of time and effort into coming up with ideas,and motions that will end up being voted on at the National Committee meeting and yes by the time it gets there it is as a rule a quick vote that will pass the motion.It would be very wrong to belittle the work done by these Sub-committees, they spent an enormous amount of time working on what they are looking at and I have been told that their make up is that the members are a diverse group. If I were to find fault it would have to be that the members do tend to be older and because of the expense involved in traveling and so on, many are fairly affluent.

Prairie_Scouter:

" I've heard stories about the Mormons forcing the issue at some point."

I am not a member of the Mormon Church, in fact I know very little about the Mormon Religion. A fact that I'm not proud of. It does seem that the Mormons are the whipping boy's for anyone or any group that wants to point the finger about the BSA being a right wing Christen organization. Sure the LDS Church is an active supporter of Scouting and the BSA. It is not the largest Chartered Partner that we have. I will post the numbers when I find them. It is worth remembering that the LDS Church chose the BSA, because the church and the BSA share the same values. A good friend of mine in the UK is a member of the LDS Church and while I'm a little unsure what his title is, he represents the church at some level to the Scout Association, when the Scout Association (UK) chose to allow Homosexuals in, the church was not overjoyed, but the Catholics and a good number of other Churches were none too happy. While some adults did quit as a protest there has not been a mass of units closing.

Prairie_Scouter

"How could change be enacted within BSA, if there was a desire to do so?"

There would be a vote at a National meeting.

The desire would be the part that would take time. Talking for myself and myself alone.

If God was taken out of Scouting completely, I would question my involvement in the BSA. I think it is at the core of everything we do. I am definitely not by any means a right wing Bible thumper. Just a run of the mill everyday Irish Roman Catholic, who one day would like to get through the gates of Heaven. If the BSA were to allow people or units the choice, I could live with that. We have lived with the Learning For Life program. I wouldn't want to join a unit like that. I feel much the same way about the homosexual thing.

Still the way things are now I signed up in the BSA knowing the rules, no one twisted my arm. I understand that if I don't play this game by the rules the BSA has every right to revoke my membership.If the BSA were to decide to do something that I was unable to live with, I can at almost any time pack my bags, withdraw my support and go elsewhere. I like to think that my service is useful to the BSA and my community, I do know that I get far more out than I put in.

Still I do understand that there are some people who are unhappy with the BSA, I don't understand why they just don't find an organization that they like?

I will leave the legal stuff to the attorneys and the courts.

Eamonn.

 

 

 

[Fuzzy Bear 12]

E.T. Seton or Ernest Seton Thompson was born in South Shields, England in 1860 and later attended London's Royal Academy as an art student. The name change was due to the Seton family's part in the 1745 Stuart rebellion, after losing, fled Scotland to South England and changed their name to Thompson to avoid being recognized. He died in 1946 after a life of being a gifted painter, sketch artist and much honored Naturalist. His paintings were considered by the American Museum of Natural History to be the best all-round animal and bird artist in America. He wrote 40-odd books, many of them children's books. He was an early conservationist, ecologist, environmentalist, and preservationist. He hunted on a limited basis but also realized how over killing destroyed his beloved natural surroundings. He wrote about animals as if they had noble human qualities but he understood how cruel nature can be. He was a romantic that enjoyed the conflict between good and evil, the knight in shining armor and the damsel in distress. He admired the American Indian. He disliked Custer and Saint Paul. He felt that Custer was an Indian hater and that Paul was anti-female. He was devoted to both, Indians and females.

 

He married Grace Gallatin, an author, in 1896 and they had a daughter, Ann or Anya Seton in 1904, who later became an author. Grace knew William Hornaday, Frank Chapman, and Daniel Carter Beard. Seton also was friends with Theodore Roosevelt and Buffalo Bill Cody. Beard and Seton co-founded the Boy Scouts of America. Apparently, Seton and Beard individually claimed to have invented the Boy Scouts. BP founded the Scout movement in England along military lines but Seton used the Woodcraft Indians theme in 1902 to develop his program as well as writing a manual, pre-BP. According to correspondence between BP and Seton, it indicates that BP used Seton's Woodcraft Indians as a model for the English program. (*check Ladies Home Journal, May 1902) After helping to found the American program, he left in 1915 after a clash with James West. Seton had also influenced the Camp Fire program in America.

 

Seton divorced Grace and later married his longtime secretary, Julia Butree in 1935. They moved to Santa Fe and adopted a daughter, Beulah, who still lives in their home in Santa Fe, NM.

 

Scouting for Boys was written in 1907 by BP. BP's Scout Promise- On my honor I promise that I will do my best- 1. To do my duty to God and the King. 2. To help other people at all times. 3. To obey the Scout Law.

 

FB

(This message has been edited by Fuzzy Bear)

[Miki101 14]

I see that Fuzzy has been reading the Betty Keller bio on the man.

 

Seton was an interesting animal, so to speak. He most definitely adored the Indian, thereby despising Gen. Custer (although he was fond of Mrs. Custer) as well as worshipping his mother, who was as Seton wrote in his memoirs, a saint and a martyr. He was a romantic in the sense that the only good point about the American West were the Indians and the worst thing was the Whiteman who ruthlessly murdered them. He had no use for the American pioneer because they did nothing but encroach upon Indian lands and induce the slaughter of the American Bison. To that end, he was asked by Hornaday to illustrate his 1887 Report to the Smithsonian in an attempt to save the almost extinct species.

 

However, his true downfall was his enormous ego and massive inferiority complex. This is what drove him to constantly work. His business sense was poor but he married well and Grace saw earning potential in him. She, in effect, became his business manager and assisted him in his contracts and book deals. He was a prolific author and illustrator who rarely found time to spend it with Grace or Ann (she always felt abandoned by both parents.) Most of his time was spent in the studio either in their New York flat or in their estate (Wyndygoul or DeWinton.) He was a friend to Theodore Roosevelt from the time when TR was New York Citys Chief of Police and a founder of the prestigious Boone and Crockett Club (credited with getting the Feds to set aside lands for National ParksYellowstone being the first). Seton was an excellent story-teller and he was asked by TR to tell one of his famous wolf stories. From then on, Seton had a lecturing career.

 

Setons identity can be summed up in 2 ways. First, by his obsession with the Indian lifestyle & spirituality, and second, his signature, signed with the wolf pawprint. That came about from the sorrow that he felt when capturing the wolf that could not be captured dubbed Lobo of the Currumpaw Valley in New Mexico. He did it, the wolf died days later and their spirits became one in Setons eyes. From that day on, Seton only shot animals with a camera and he began signing his name with the addition of the Lobo pawprint signifying their unity of spirit.

 

Seton always wanted to be the head honcho at the BSA. He and West never got along because it was clear that West was going to be the only honcho. Seton was cut off in most creative directions that he turned by either West or the Editorial Board,or as Dan Beard called them,the swivel chair committee. But that is another story. By the end of 1915, Seton announced in the New York Times that he was no longer and member of the BSA and he spoke of Scouting as Seton started it, Baden-Powell boomed it, West killed it in addition to the statement that West had never seen a blue sky in his life. The reasons for his outster or resignation are pretty specific on both sides, but again, that is another story.

 

Roosevelt publicly supported West on the issue, which probably resulted in the BSAs headquarters being flooded with letters of support from regular citizens congratulating them for tossing out their noisy prima donna and ridding the organization of hyphenates. Seton never really recovered although he quickly began rebuilding his Woodcraft League in 1916. However, as we all know, it never was able to capture the imagination of the American citizen, probably because of its emphasis on the Indian lifestyle.

 

Setons groundbreaking work was clearly utilized by Baden-Powell in his scheme but it does not appear to have been in a malicious way. Baden-Powell was a very clever man, (he had to be to survive Mafeking), and he used his military skills to their fullest in civilian life. As some people would say, Baden-Powell plagiarized Seton but that was really not what happened. However, Seton would never get over his charge of B-P as a plagiarist and it ate at him until his death in 1946. This obsession with due credit was the direct result of his inferiority complex.

 

But in the end, Setons work is clearly seen in the BSA, even though West tried to write him out of it (the OA came from a Seton lecture heard by Carroll Edson) as well as the seed for the Cub Program (Kipling was seemingly a creative step behind Seton ever now and then, though they were very good friends). And Setons influence will probably stay for years to come because he was a purist when it came to the out-of-doors lifestyle and we all can thank him for that.

 

[Fuzzy Bear 12]

Mik,

 

Thanks for the clear and concise report on Seton that extended and clarified my clumsy summation based on ETS by John G. Sampson.

 

As a youth, your lodge was my lodge. The much misunderstood but beloved Asa L. was our Advisor.

 

FB