Thanks, Alpha Phi Omega for NOT discriminating!

[SR540Beaver 116]

Whew! I for one am glad to hear that the BSA is feeding at the public trough. That means we can quit paying the annual dues for my son in his troop. I no longer need to write a check to FOS either. I'm assuming that we can do away with those work days to prepare for summer camp as state labor will be doing all the heavy lifting. How dare the BSA ask me to give my time, talent and money to support them when all along they were raking in the big tax dollars!

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

Typically, Bob refuses to admit to his lying and instead tries to paint me as a villain for trying to stop discrimination against atheists.

 

Tell me Bob, are you going to STOP claiming that the BSA gets no government money?

[acco40 95]

Does not the US Congress appropriate funds (millions of $) to help fund the National Jamboree?

 

I don't think the rules for BSA membership has changed all that much from 1910, I just think that the interpretation of those rules has changed. Heck, in the Declaration of Independence (We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.) which has not changed for over 200 years, interpretation of "men" (does it include African-Americans, women, youth?) has been debated and tested in our courts of law.

 

That is why I abhor such catch phrases as "traditional values" that the current BSA administration (marketing department?) likes to cling to. What does that mean? It is far to open to interpretation for me. The exclusion of avowed homosexuals is a recent interpretation of the BSA principles. Some agree with that interpretation, other do not. I believe this is why many say they argree with the BSA principles but not the BSA position.

[Fat Old Guy 11]

Moi-lin, discriminating against atheists is no more wrong than failing a math student who thinks that 2 x 2 = 17, you're both wrong. Think of how much rewarding your life would be if you'd simply accept what you know deep down to be true, there is a supreme being.

[NJCubScouter 1389]

Excuse me for getting back to the original subject of this thread, but...

 

I have heard of but never personally encountered the organization APO, so I went onto their web site (intuitively enough, www.apo.org) to get a better idea of what it was all about. While it is true as Bob says, that it is a "different organization," I wonder how many organizations have among their official stated purposes, "to assemble college students in a national service fraternity in the fellowship of principles derived from the Scout Oath and Law of the Boy Scouts of America" or have a section at the bottom of their home page titled "Our Partners," including the name and logo of the Boy Scouts of America (linking to the BSA home page.) The logo, by the way, appears to be a copyrighted symbol of the BSA, though there is no copyright mark.

 

You'd think, that with such different membership policies, the BSA would sue them to make them stop referring to the BSA and using their copyrighted symbols, wouldn't you? (For all subtlety-impaired persons, that was a bit of sarcasm.)

 

Non-sarcastically, it is interesting to note that by implication, this organization (APO) apparently believes that the "principles derived from the Scout Oath and Law of the Boy Scouts of America" do not justify some of the current membership policies of the BSA. Imagine that.

[acco40 95]

FOG, your attempt at humor makes you come across as a pompous ass.

[Herms 10]

Kudos NJCubScouter, on taking a little time to research a subject and post an intelligent response.

[Bob White 20]

NJ

The APO says that they are based on the values not that they mimic the values. They are a re separate organizattion that gives service to their community and continue to use the Oath and Law as a guide. As you have read they do not make any judgement on the internal processes of other organizations. so your assumption is totally unfounded. They use the Scout emblem with the permission of the BSA who recognizes and supports their mission.

 

We have two large universities in our District with active APO's. We function together on several activities and get along just fine. They support our efforts and do not question our membership policies and we do not question theirs. Why should we.. they are a separate organization and can set whatever membership policies they choose, as can the BSA.

 

Merlyn,

For me to be lying I would have to be saying something that I know is false. As I have told you, I do not know that to be the case. In fact my experience and knowledge of scouting, which far exceeds your own, is quite the contrary. So continue your rabid accusations if you choose, but like the court case you sight, you have lots of accusations but at this point in time no evidence, only opinion. In case you haven't noticed, I put no stock at all in your opinion.

 

On the bright side, the same law that permits you to have an opinion on the appropriateness of my values, allows the BSA to have an opinion about the appropriateness of yours. I think they have made the right choice.

 

 

[Fat Old Guy 11]

Stapler guy, where was I trying to be funny? I will state for the record that although I may be an ass, I am rarely pompous however pompatus is another matter. You might even want to call me Maurice because I speak of the pompatus of love.

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

Bob, you're lying (again). It is not my "opinion" that the Old Baldy council received a $15,000 grant. That's a fact that the Old Baldy council admits to on their own webpage:

http://www.obcbsa.org/March_Newsletter.pdf

(see the last page)

 

And your reply to larryfiehn was NOT that your district didn't get government money, or that you knew of no districts that receive government money, but that "the BSA gets no money from the government". larryfiehn and I can point to the Old Baldy grant as an example of the BSA getting money from the government.

[Bob White 20]

Merlyn, I can see that your mind is made up, I will no longer attempt to confuse you with facts.

 

[NJCubScouter 1389]

Bob says:

 

The APO says that they are based on the values not that they mimic the values.

 

That's pretty clever, but it doesn't answer the question. Actually what I quoted does not use either the terms "based on" or "mimic." But let's leave that aside.

 

What your statement really does is raise, again, the question of which of the BSA's values, if any, require the BSA to exclude openly gay leaders. It is a question I have asked several times but have never gotten a real answer to. Assuming that there is such a value (or more than one), and the APO's policies are based on the same values as the BSA's, then how could the 2 organizations come to such a different conclusion on an issue that the BSA believes is so important?

 

Maybe the answer is that it is not so important -- in other words, that the exclusion of gays is not required by some fundamental, central value of the BSA. And if that is the case, there doesn't have to be a uniform national policy about it.

 

As you have read they do not make any judgement on the internal processes of other organizations.

 

I didn't say they do, explicitly, or even consciously. I said "by implication." One organization interprets the words of the Scout Oath and Law to mean gay people should be excluded. Another interprets the same words to mean they should not. That implies a disagreement about how the words should be interpreted, even if neither organization is making a "judgment" about the policies of the other.

 

so your assumption is totally unfounded.

 

I didn't assume anything. I made a logical deduction. But now I will make a supposition, which I can't prove, and that is that the BSA was not happy to see APO's statement on this subject.

 

They use the Scout emblem with the permission of the BSA who recognizes and supports their mission.

 

Bob, I'm sure you can't see the irony in that statement, but I can.

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

Let me get this straight, Bob; I point to actual documents showing the Old Baldy council getting money from the government, the Old Baldy website newsletter says they got this money from the government, you keep stating that "the BSA gets no money from the government", and you won't confuse ME with the facts?

 

You can't confuse me with the facts, because you have no facts.

 

Oh, and in the future, if you continue to lie and state that the BSA doesn't get any money from the government, I'll continue to call you on your lies. And any whining about how I'm not sticking to the subject will be ignored.

[Bob White 20]

"I didn't say they do, explicitly, or even consciously. I said "by implication."

 

The distinction is that you suggest that "they" are making the implication, and the fact is it is your implication and not theirs.

 

They are not a part of the BSA, why are you determenined to make them match each others rules rules? They have different missions and so who they allow as members differs as well. An 11-year-old boy cannot join APO. But how can that be? By your logic since they are based on the same values they should accept the same membership.

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Bob White 20]

Well Merlyn, I have given your last response a few hours to settle in and have come to this response.

 

If the only tool of debate you can muster up is to repeat over and over "Liar, Liar" then there is little need for me to read more than one of your posts to know what the content of every post will be. So based on your gracious warning I have squelched your posts, since the value of their content is both predictable and pointless. (those being the two standards by which I squelch).

 

On the bright side, you have found both an efficient (albeit limited) communication device and could make many posters participation here more enjoyable. I offer this for your consideration. Why not just have everyone who has a differing point of view from your own, end their post with: Merlyn says,"liar, liar".

 

This would effectively communicate your end of the conversation without you actually having to go through the strain of either thinking or typing. In fact it would make it unnecessary for you to even visit the forum, or read our posts, yet everyone would know your opinion and the depth of your character. Think of the time it would allow! You could even go out and do something positive for your legacy.

 

I wish you well.

Bob White

 

Merlyn says, "liar, liar".