Thanks, Alpha Phi Omega for NOT discriminating!

[larryfiehn]

As an Alpha Phi Omega alum and former Chapter President, I just want to thank APO for maintaining its independence and seperate identity from the Boy Scouts of America.

 

A recent reply from APO in response to me asking about its membership policies regarding non-heterosexual and non-theist persons was (** shows emphasis added):

 

"Alpha Phi Omega has an open membership policy and chapters are free to recruit **any** students that are enrolled full time with their host institution. As you know we were founded by Scouters and believe that the Scouting principles are values that **all** members can strive for **regardless of BSA policies**. The principles and the BSA policies are not contingent to each other and APO does not take a stance on any organization's internal policies."

 

At least I can still PROUDLY claim APO in my history. Oh, I used to be a member of the National Eagle Scout Association until it was co-opted by the National Council and since then, you cannot be a member of NESA just because you WERE an Eagle Scout. Now you have to meet BSA's normal registration requirement(s)!

 

I think that the "Knights of Dunamis" should have stayed independent from the National Council of the BSA!

 

[Bob White]

So the APO is a different organization with different rules. Were you not aware as the president of an APO chapter what the membership rules were?

 

You are free to belong to any organization whose rules you abide by. Why should the APO, or the BSA for that matter be any different in that way?

[larryfiehn]

Hi, Bob.

 

Back when I was an APO officer, the BSA hadn't become actively discriminatory as its current leadership has led it to become against "non-theist" believers and non-heterosexual persons. I feel the BSA today is a youth program largely controlled by so-called "fundmentalist", often self-described "Christian", religious organizations. Just evidence that several of its largest partnering organizations are: the Roman Catholic Church and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

 

And I feel the BSA should be "different" in that:

 

a) It has a charter issued by the Congress of the United States;

 

b) It continues to "feed at the public trough". If, as it claims, it is a "private" organization not subject to anti-discrimination laws, it should quit asking the public and the government for handouts.

 

APO is founded on "Scouting" principles, principles that I feel have been corrupted ainto the current policies of the BSA. The BSA is one Scouting organization. It is not the be-all and end-all of "Scouting".

 

Again, just my personal opinions, and I know others will disagree.

 

All the best!

[Bob White]

Were you a Boy Scout prior to 1910? I only ask because Duty to God has been a requirement since then. NESA has been part of the BSA since its transformation from KoD. This is nothing new. Oh it may be new to you, but it is not in itself new.

 

Why should the fact that the BSA holds a Congressional charter force it to abandon its constitutional right to free association?

 

"It continues to "feed at the public trough". If, as it claims, it is a "private" organization not subject to anti-discrimination laws, it should quit asking the public and the government for handouts."

 

Lots of private organizations get public funding larry. Easter Seals, MDA, the Girl Scouts, Salvation Army, YMCA, YWCA, even Greek societies like the APO get donations to continue their work. What government funding? Their are charter organizations that get governemt monies to bring educational program such as some of the BSA programs to its youth, But the BSA gets no money from the government.

 

The BSA is one Scouting organization. It is not the be-all and end-all of "Scouting". It is in the United States. It never claimed to be the be-all, end-all at any time that I am aware of. Do you have evidence to the contrary? As far as the other approximately 200 scouting programs, each is independent within their own borders and are free to do as they wish.

 

I think it is great that you have a personal opinion and have the courage and the tools to express it. Always remember it was scouting that helped you to develop those abilities.

 

Now that you have your opinion developed, perhaps you should take time to learn the truth about the situation because you have some very innaccurate information about the BSA.

[whitewater]

Bob's right. The BSA's policies haven't changed signiicantly.

 

What I think has changed is the level of attacks on it by liberal groups, and the coverage those groups receive from the media. Since when is it a bad thing to believe in traditional values?

 

Besides, everyone discriminates. If I'm not a college student, I can't join APO.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Bob White writes:

What government funding? Their are charter organizations that get governemt monies to bring educational program such as some of the BSA programs to its youth, But the BSA gets no money from the government.

 

Bob, the ACLU is currently suing HUD for granting money to BSA Scoutreach programs; that's government money:

http://www.bsa-discrimination.org/Old_Blady_Complaint.pdf

 

This complaint includes the original contract; you'll notice that all of the $15,000 HUD grant went into the pockets of two BSA execs (page 26), and that all this paid for was for the BSA to try to get kids to join their discriminatory program. And be sure to read the bottom of page 17, where the BSA agreed that they would not discriminate on the basis of religion & creed in the benefits of this government-funded program.

[Bob White]

That is the accusation that has yet to be proven in court. Besides Merlyn you already have a thread on that, if you want to continue it do so there, and refrain from hijacking this thread which is about a different topic.

Thanks,

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Bob, everything I've stated is IN the contract, which you can read for yourself; there's nothing I've said that needs to be proven in court.

 

And I will continue to object to your lies when you say the Boy Scouts don't get any government money; the Old Baldy contract is $15,000 in government money. Stop lying.

[Bob White]

Let's get a few things straight Merlyn. I have no reason to lie about such a thing. I am a volunteer and I have no vested intersest in the finances of the BSA. I am not a member of the council in question and gain or lose nothing either personally or scouting-wise by the outcome of this case. If you should get your fondest desire and live to see the dissolution of the BSA it would effect me and 1.5 million other volunteers only slightly. I would have more free time, and more varied wardrobe, and fewer mosquito-like annoyances like you to. I would still have my scout skills and values something that bothers you the most that you can never rid any of us of. I would still work to develop positive scout-like values in youth, something no adult ever did for you, and I would still work for the benefit of the community (and you and I define 'benefit' in totally opposite ways).

 

I can only go by my scouting experience as a district and council committee member in four different councils. In every case, we never directly accepted government funding. What you continue to snipe at has only been determined illegal in your very narrow mind even before the courts have heard a shread of evidence. You have only the information presented by an opposing point of view and as I understand it trials and hearings are where most of the facts come out, not in the accusations. So I am willing to let the due process of the court system play its role first. How about you?

 

Now please have the courtesy to either stick to the topic raised by the originator of thread and quit invading with your own little hissy fit.

 

Yours in a still healthy and vibrant scouting program celebrating its 94th year in existence,

Bob White

[Fat Old Guy]

What I'd like to know is how Glenn Goodwin suffered through all of this and how much the ACLU has promised him.

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Let's get one thing straight, Bob; when you say that the BSA gets no government money, you're lying.

 

You keep trying to defend your lying by saying the Old Baldy case hasn't been decided, but that case isn't about whether the OB council got money or not, it's whether they committed fraud to do so. There's no dispute over WHETHER they got the money.

 

So every time you flatly state that "the BSA gets no money from the government", you are LYING! Got that?

[Hunt]

Merlyn, even if there is one case (apparently only one, since you keep harping on it) in which arguably a government grant went to a BSA group, it's ridiculous to accuse Bob White of "lying" when he says BSA doesn't get government funding. It's also unseemly, and won't gain you any points with the Scouters following this forum. Which brings me back to my refrain from other threads--why waste your time here? If you're not trying to persuade us--and your tone suggests you aren't--are you just trying to annoy us?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

I know of a lot more instances of government money going to the BSA, but I cite the Old Baldy case a lot because it's currently in court and the complaint is available on-line.

 

And no, it isn't ridiculous to accuse Bob White of lying, because he IS lying when he says the BSA gets no money from the government. He said that in reply to larryfiehn who pointed out that the supposedly "private" BSA still feeds at the public trough, which is quite true. Bob is trying to win the argument by falsely stating that the BSA does not get public money.

[Proud Eagle]

Wouldn't that be a matter of how you define what constitutes the BSA?

 

What I am trying to say is, one person could consider the BSA to be only the national council, while another could define the BSA as being any part of the Boy Scouts of America, down to its individual members.

 

Another possible point of contention would be the definition of "gets". Are we talking about currently receiving, or having received at some point in the past? After all, the Catholic Church once received $1000 from the federal government during the presidency of George Washington for the purpose of building a new church building. However, I don't think anyone would claim that as a current example of getting government money.

 

However, I do have to say, it appears that the government did give some money to a local council in this case. My guess would be the local council thought it was being truthful in the contract, but simply had a interpretation of what religious discrimination is that differed from that held by the ACLU, and perhaps by the courts, though that last part is still to be seen.

 

I seem to remember hearing of a local case where a local housing authority received a HUD grant. That grant was to fund a variety of local youth programs. One of the programs that benefited was Scout unit chartered in the housing project, because the housing authority purchased some camping gear which the unit members were then able to use. Here the government did not give money to BSA, yet BSA members benefited (along with others). I think arrangements of this sort are probably rather common, and almost certainly legal. Not that it would make too much difference if they were not completely legal. After all, there is no such thing as a law without a loop hole or exception or waiver of some sort. My home town was able to get a federal highway grant that specifically prohibits it from being used for historic preservation or roadside beautification, and used it to construct a replica of a historic fountain in a local park.

[Bob White]

My father-in-law is a retired brick mason. He said the saddest day on the job was when he realized he was suddenly building more jails than churches. Although never a scout he has always been very interested and supportive of my scouting participation. As he puts it. "it takes a craftsman to build something of value, but any jackass can knock things down."

 

Merlyn, if successful in your mission, your legacy will be that you helped knock down a program that has benefitted millions of children, unfortunately you were not one of them. What a legacy to leave behind, that in your life you had only the ability to knock things down.

 

Fortunately for you, I am one of millions of craftsmen (and women), and there are not enough jackasses in the world to destroy what we have built.

 

I feel truly sorry for you.