My cold dead hands...

[Fat Old Guy 11]

"Well gee FOG, give me enough credit to know better than to shoot a gun in the general direction of my family."

 

Well, when the bad guy is shooting at you, you may forget that behind him is a wall and behind the wall is a room.

[Fat Old Guy 11]

"Did the criminologists say how many of those guns are used by law enforcement officers?"

 

The FBI says that citizens (non-cops) stop and detain three times as many criminals as the police do.

[Fat Old Guy 11]

" If you can show me a hidden chapter in the bible where Jesus pulls out an M-16 "

 

That would be difficult since Eugene Stoner was born in the 20th century. However, didn't Christ say "if you don't got a piece, go sell your Starter jacket and buy one"?

[Bob White 20]

Again, I have nothing against guns, or the legal ownership of them, and I think there are other purposes for them than killing people.

But Trail Pounder, just what country's army do you feel has the capacity to try and land sufficient enemy forces in the USA that our military structure is incapable of stopping?

[lasteagle83 10]

All thoughts of "world peace", "love your brother", and "no disagreement is worth resorting to violence" will go COMPLETELY out the window when you have a weapon pointed at you for no reason, and someone demanding you turn over your hard-earned belongings to them for no reason other than the threat of bodily harm. I still consider myself a very non-violent person, but I am a PREPARED person as well - gee, wonder where that came from?

 

As to Achileez' assertion that the sole purpose of guns is to kill/injure people, I'll partially agree that this is their sad ULTIMATE purpose. In far more circumstances, just their displayed presence and uncertainty as to whether they would be used against a cowardly felon does, indeed, prevent crime from occurring. I'm living, breathing proof of that.

 

Keep in mind the cowardly criminal element will always resort to finding some degree of superiority over their victims. Doing away with legally owned firearms, and the uncertainty of the criminal element of which law-abiding citizen has one and would be willing to use it against them, would increase crime dramatically. Remember, these people STEAL a great number of their weapons, just as they STEAL everything else. Their weapons are rarely registered, so any type of weapons ban would only give the criminal element the upper hand - how would you go about confiscating weapons you don't know exist?

 

If this world were to resort to sticks and stones, they'd have the bigger sticks, and the sharper stones; likely stolen from a law-abiding citizen who had his sticks and stones properly registered and properly stored in a stick/stone safe.

 

As stated earlier, I respect the opinions of those on BOTH sides of this issue. My opinions are, obviously, based on personal experiences. I hope none of you ever have to experience what I did; further, I hope your lack of said experiences do not taint your vision and thoughts as to the needs of others to lawfully defend themselves.

[Bob White 20]

"If this world were to resort to sticks and stones, they'd have the bigger sticks, and the sharper stones; likely stolen from a law-abiding citizen who had his sticks and stones properly registered and properly stored in a stick/stone safe."

 

Is this really the example you want to use? Following this logic....

If this world were to resort to handguns and shotguns, they (the criminals) would have the bigger guns, and shotguns; likely stolen from a law-abiding citizen who had his guns and shotguns properly registered and properly stored in a gun safe.

 

And by the way that's not true either. Rarely are the stolen guns from gun safes. they are usually from the night stand or under the bed or some other easy to access location that the owner had them in because he left his home susceptible to break-ins.

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[lasteagle83 10]

Agreed, a quality stick-and-stone safe should repel the criminal element......if they don't steal the entire unit and enter it at their leisure (I know of a lake locally that was drained a few years ago and several blown/drilled safes and gunsafes were found at the bottom). And yes, most sticks and stones would be kept where their more advanced predecessors are: unsecured and easy to find. My point, in any event, is that whatever weapon is available, the criminal element will target to further their own efforts.

[Bob White 20]

So home owners would need what then Laser guided ballistics? if no matter what gun you own crooks will have bigger guns then why have the gun at all let the crook have a bigger nothing than you have?

 

I'm not saying that is the way to go but it is the logic you chose to follow.

 

I can see the value in some many ways for gun owner ship especially if you were in a hi risk profession. But to keep a loaded firearm where you can access while barely awake and reacted from fear or surprise in the dark does not seem like a good decision to me.

 

 

[Fat Old Guy 11]

" Rarely are the stolen guns from gun safes."

 

Ha! Ha, ha! Ha, ha, ha!

[LovetoCamp 9]

Bob, we fought the Germans twice last century and the British twice the century before that. Today nobdy, tomorrow......

 

We've had buglary's in the neighborhood. When I wake up due to a bump in the night or the viscious snarling of my attack trained guard Daschund, I'm not half asleep.

[le Voyageur 72]

In referance to the term " well regulated milita" well trained is not correct. During the Colonial era every community had milita units, and all lacked any sembalance of uniformity for training their members. A well regulated milita was simply one overseen by a Committe of Safety who either appointed the officers, or allowed the members to elect their own officers to lead them.

Well trained wouldn't happen until Von Stuben at Valley Forge...

 

On a side note that I found interesting, in 1665 settlers moving into the Carolinas were required to armed. From the colonial records..."all free men, and free women will be possesed of a good firelock (my note - 75 cal.), 10 pounds of powder, and 20 pounds of lead..."

 

Interesting to note that women were required to be armed, hey...

[lasteagle83 10]

Bob, I think you've misunderstood what I am saying. I am not advocating an "arms race" between law-abiding citizens and criminals, but it's funny how the criminals usually seem to have the more dangerous weapons, and law-abiding citizens (and law enforcement, for that matter) are always doing a job of "catch up". Chk with your folks in LE and they'll likely agree, especially if they're in an urban area, or an area with high incidents of gang violence.

 

My point, for the record, is that the criminal element will always be armed, regardless of the feel-good "love your brother" intents we'd ALL like to have. They'll steal these weapons from whatever convenient source they can find, whether that be a homeowner with poor (or proper) storage practices, unattended law enforcement vehicles, military installations, etc. Disarming those who have "no need" for them will only embolden those who continue to victimize others with them.

 

Yes, I carry. Not laser-guided ballistics, but a respectable sidearm or two. And no, I'm not (currently) in a high risk profession, but I have been employed in high risk geographic areas before. And frankly, random violent crime does occur in the best of neighborhoods, so who's to say what is really "high risk" anyway?

 

Let's put this issue to rest, shall we?

[Region 7 Voyageur 10]

"So make yourselves good scouts and good rifle shots in order to protect the women and chidren of your country if it should ever become necesary."

 

Scouting for Boys, Part V, Lieut.-General R.S.S. Baden-Powell

 

Published 1908

[Bob White 20]

Let's put that into historical perspective Region 7. Much of B-Ps purpose to the original British Scouting program was to encourage and prepare young boys for a stint in the military. That is not the purpose of the BSA.

[Achilleez 10]

I know that you already know this FOG, but I'm going to say it anyway.

 

My allusion to Jesus using an M-16 on the guards was a simple figurative comparison. Does he not say to love your enemies and turn the other cheek? The last time I checked, pointing or firing a gun at someone does not qualify as loving them. When the guards came to arrest their company, was the disciple not ordered to stay his sword?

 

Now, I too am thoroughly annoyed with people who use some abstract verse from the bible to argue with. But I have to hold firm to my claim, more guns do not make for a safer place. I would sooner give the criminal my $60 tv than attempt a shootoff with him.