The Facts of the Dale Case

[OldGreyEagle 5]

I almost cant beleive I am posting this here as I have no idea where this is gonna go...

 

What are the facts of the Dale case or at least where can I go to find out? I was at a scouter meeting a few days ago and someone said Dale was thrown out because he was demonstrating for Gay Rights in uniform with pink ribbons on his epaulets. I said no, he was at a gay rights rally and he appeared in a picture, was recognized and the rest is history. Dale kept being gay separate from Boy Scouts. The other person disagreed.

 

Whats the correct story? Or maybe even more fun, what do you think you know about the case? I would love to find the original picture that started it all and see what he is wearing.

 

And yes, it may be unscoutlike, but my opponent in this is a loud mouth know it all braggart that I would sorely love to crush like a bug and we all know there is usually only room for one of those in a Disrict so I need to run him off...(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[dan 10]

OGE

Ok you made me smile! Thanks.

 

If my old memory serves me correctly the picture with him in uniform was taken after he was removed from the BSA.

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

 

Here's the decision from Cornell's web site:

http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/99-699.ZO.html

 

The first part is the findings of fact section; I don't think either side disputed any of these findings:

 

...

Dale applied for adult membership in the Boy Scouts in 1989. The Boy Scouts approved his application for the position of assistant scoutmaster of Troop 73. Around the same time, Dale left home to attend Rutgers University. After arriving at Rutgers, Dale first acknowledged to himself and others that he is gay. He quickly became involved with, and eventually became the copresident of, the Rutgers University Lesbian/Gay Alliance. In 1990, Dale attended a seminar addressing the psychological and health needs of lesbian and gay teenagers. A newspaper covering the event interviewed Dale about his advocacy of homosexual teenagers need for gay role models. In early July 1990, the newspaper published the interview and Dales photograph over a caption identifying him as the copresident of the Lesbian/Gay Alliance.

 

Later that month, Dale received a letter from Monmouth Council Executive James Kay revoking his adult membership. Dale wrote to Kay requesting the reason for Monmouth Councils decision. Kay responded by letter that the Boy Scouts "specifically forbid membership to homosexuals."

...

 

Stevens' dissent quotes the relevant part of that newspaper story:

 

"James Dale, 19, co-president of the Rutgers University Lesbian Gay Alliance with Sharice Richardson, also 19, said he lived a double life while in high school, pretending to be straight while attending a military academy.

 

"He remembers dating girls and even laughing at homophobic jokes while at school, only admitting his homosexuality during his second year at Rutgers.

 

" 'I was looking for a role model, someone who was gay and accepting of me,' Dale said, adding he wasn't just seeking sexual experiences, but a community that would take him in and provide him with a support network and friends."

 

 

[dan 10]

Is this the picture?

 

http://www.dybbuk.com/mgp/people/jamesdale.html

 

 

 

 

 

http://christianity.about.com/library/weekly/aa090899.htm

 

 

In July 1990, Dale was interviewed by the Newark Star-Ledger, which ran an article reporting on a seminar that addressed the psychological and health needs of lesbian and gay teenagers. In connection with the interview, Dale's photo appeared in the Star-Ledger with a caption identifying him as co-president of the Rutgers University Lesbian/Gay Alliance. Later that month, Dale received a letter from BSA Monmouth Council Executive James W. Kay, revoking his BSA membership. In response to Dale's request for the basis of his dismissal, Kay indicated that the standards for leadership established by the BSA specifically excluded homosexuals.

 

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Well, Thank You Merlyn I appreciate it

 

And no Dan, not that Picture, I mean the one of him in the rally. Unless that was the picture that ran in the paper that started the whole thing, is it?

[eagle90 125]

OGE -

 

There is a web site (and I apologize for not remembering what it is) whereby you can print the entire Supreme Court decision, which includes the facts as presented and the majority and minority opinions. I printed it out just after it came out and found it to be fascinating reading. Maybe someone can remind us of the site.

[SR540Beaver 116]

OGE,

 

I doubt if such a picture exists. If you go to Google, there is a tab you can click on to do "Image" searches. I searched on Dale's full name and found plenty of pictures of him, but none in uniform. I would think that if a pic of Dale like you described existed on the web, Google would find it.

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Thank you all, The link Merlyn has is quite good. The issue is whether or not the picture with the pink tabs actualy exists. I think its an urban legend, then again I could be wrong. What I am looking for now is the actual picture the Newspaper ran after he did the interview that started the whole fracas or the pink tab one.

 

I dont doubt perhaps somebody posed in a uniform at a gay pride day with pink tabs, I just dont think it was Dale, any help would be appreciated.

 

 

[Twocubdad 665]

At the time the case was decided, I remember seeing a photo of Dale, in uniform, in Time magazine. (I found the article on Time.com, but not the photo.) I recall that the photo was taken outside the courthouse for one of the hearings, although not necessarily outside the Supreme Court. It seems to me he was surrounded by protesters, but my impression was they were there in support of the lawsuit.

 

I think if it were a "smoking gun" photo of him at the original Rutgers rally, that would have been noted in the caption and I would have probably remembered.

[NJCubScouter 1389]

There is nothing in what I have read about the case (which includes what Merlyn posted) that suggests that James Dale was ever seen dressed in anything "ostentatious," or that he ever did so. The event that he attended, leading to the newspaper story that led to his removal, was not a "gay rally" with men dressing like ballerinas. The Supreme Court opinion makes clear that it was a "seminar"; a serious discussion of the issues facing gay teenagers. Elsewhere I have read that Dale participated in the seminar because he hoped that his experiences in dealing with the "discovery" process and with the discrimination he had faced, would help younger people going through the same process.

 

Considering the fact that Dale was an assistant scoutmaster and nobody in his unit knew he was gay, and that he was interested in helping youth regardless of their orientation, it seems to me that a guy like this would be a pretty good role model for anybody.

[NJCubScouter 1389]

By the way, another description of the basic facts may be found at http://lawlibrary.rutgers.edu/decisions/supreme/a-195-97.opn.html

 

This is the New Jersey Supreme Court's unanimous decision in Dale's favor, which was reversed by a 5-4 vote on the U.S. Supreme Court. This decision includes the following:

 

James Dale became a member of BSA in 1978 at the age of eight. He remained a youth member of BSA until his eighteenth birthday in l988. Dale was an exemplary scout. During his long membership, he earned many badges and honors, including the award of an Eagle Scout Badge, an honor achieved by only the top three percent of all scouts. On March 21, 1989, Dale sought adult membership in BSA. Monmouth Council and BSA accepted and approved his application for the position of Assistant Scoutmaster of Troop 73, where he served for approximately sixteen months.

 

In July 1990, Dale was interviewed by the Star-Ledger, which ran an article reporting on a seminar that addressed the psychological and health needs of lesbian and gay teenagers. In connection with the interview, Dale's photo appeared in the Star-Ledger with a caption identifying him as co-president of the Rutgers University Lesbian/Gay Alliance. Later that month, Dale received a letter from BSA Monmouth Council Executive James W. Kay, revoking Dale's BSA membership. In response to Dale's request for the basis of the Monmouth Council's decision to revoke his BSA membership, Kay indicated that the standards for leadership established by the BSA specifically forbade membership to homosexuals.

 

[dan 10]

OGE

I know nothing about that picture.

 

But I did find the 2 alleged letters he received from the BSA removing him from the BSA here, and a few more pictures of him.

 

http://www.lambdalegal.org

 

Is it going in the direction you thought it would?(This message has been edited by dan)

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Actually this is going well, I was afraid we would get into another its wrong/its ok argument going over ground that has been plowed more often times that the farmland next to the Nile. I wanted to get the facts on the Dale case and I would really love the picture that the Star-Ledger published that got the whole ball rolling

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

 

The online archives of the Star-Ledger don't include photographs, so a NJ library is probably your best bet.

 

This interview with James Dale says the photo was taken during the conference by the Star-Ledger:

http://www.generationq.org/jdale.htm

 

Q: How did your being Gay come out?

 

JD: I was speaking at a conference. The School of Social Work had a conference for teachers and guidance counselors on how they could be better about Lesbian and Gay issues in their classrooms. I was nineteen at the time. The Star Ledger was there. I guess they photographed me. I didn't think too much about it. The Boy Scouts saw it (The article) and then suddenly I was persona non grata.

 

So it was just an ordinary picture of him at the conference.

[OldGreyEagle 5]

But Merlyn, thats the point, Its funny that the most significant photo in Boy Scout's in the last 50 years is so hard to find. It would end an urban legend