Atheist leader to be expelled from BSA

[Bob White 20]

"These units are chartered by the US military and cannot exclude atheists; ask Brad Farmer and the other BSA execs if they expect the US government to practice unlawful religious discrimination on their behalf.

 

This argument is built on a false premise. It suggests that the the because the unit is chartered to a specific organization that the members are members of that organization and that is not true. Scouts and scouters are registered with the BSA and so are bound by the membership and joining requirements of the program they are members of. The Chartered organization, contract with the BSA, may have more restricive requirements than the BSA but cannot be less restrictive than the BSA.

 

The CO may expell a member from participation and even drop them from the unit roster, but only the BSA can remove their membership.

 

Just because a unit creates bylaws or posts on a website that doesn't make it legitimate. Only the BSA controls the scouting program, a fact testing and supported all the way through the Supreme Court of the United States.

 

Learning for Life is a totally different situation. LfL is a separate division of the BSA and does not have the same joining requirements as what are known as the "traditional" programs of Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts and Venturing.

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

>This page

>http://members.doubleknot.com/Pack4567/about/ScoutingOnSubase/scoutingonsubase.html

 

>clearly states "Cub Scouts: Sponsored by the CO of Subase, Capt. Baker"

>and

>"Boy Scouts: Sponsored by the PACNORWEST MWR David Della Rovere"

 

PACNORWEST MWR is the Morale, Welfare, and Recreation department of the Pacific Northwest Surface Group, which is certainly a government agency.

 

And, as before, I doubt that the cub pack is chartered to an individual.

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

>>"These units are chartered by the US military and cannot exclude atheists; ask Brad Farmer and the other BSA execs if they expect the US government to practice unlawful religious discrimination on their behalf.

 

>This argument is built on a false premise. It suggests that the the because the unit is chartered to a specific organization that the members are members of that organization and that is not true.

 

No, that's not my argument at all.

 

A government agency can't discriminate on the basis of religion; they can't run, own, or sponsor a youth group that excludes atheists. Period.

 

>Scouts and scouters are registered with the BSA and so are bound by the membership and joining requirements of the program they are members of. The Chartered organization, contract with the BSA, may have more restricive requirements than the BSA but cannot be less restrictive than the BSA.

 

Which is why no government agency can legally charter a BSA unit that excludes atheists. They'll all get scrapped by the ACLU lawsuit.

[Bob White 20]

Merlyn,

That does not change the fact that if a government agency chooses to charter a scout unit, they do not have the authority to lessen the joining requirements. Only the BSA can set minimum requirements and it is not altered simply because of a charter organizations membership rules, because the scout or scouter is there as a member of the BSA not a member of the charter organization.

 

The US military cannot discriminate against it's own members but a scout or scouter is acting as a member of the BSA and so are held to the BSA's requirements.

 

You have a non-argument.

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Merl, Merl, Merl, you are one persistent guy. Actually I was quite surprised this topic went on as long as it did without you making a post.

 

I know you have commented on the ACLU lawsuit to strip all "governmental" units of their Boy Scout Charters, whether they be Public Schools, Military Bases, or whatever before. Can you give us an update on the proceedings? And when a decision is likely? I know you were talking about this issue at least two years ago, why would such a clear cut issue take so long?

 

And if you answered this before, I missed it, Why does the US Military employ Chaplains, I would think salaries for Chaplains would be a violation of CHurch and State separation.

[acco40 95]

I understand the BSA's position on religion, Scout Oath and being reverent. Personnally, I like to judge a man's character by his actions and not his beliefs. I can separate the two, others cannot. I think what troubles many is organizations that judge a person by their beliefs. I realize that they have a right to do so.

 

Trying to really determine someone's beliefs is a risky business and smacks of "thought police" to some.

[DeLukas 10]

During my years in scouting I came to hate most troop leaders. Why might you ask?

 

Well things like this event and ideas shown in this thread are why. Most troop leaders care more about the letter of the law and care nothing for the boys. The leaders forget that they are there to help and teach the boys. Scouting should be about the boys, not the leaders and not the by-laws. To many scout leaders are the type of people who should never be given power over other people. They are close minded holier then thou authoritarians who are more concerned that their commands are followed then if the boys are having fun and learning in a safe environment. Sure they come in with good intentions, but most show their true colors under pressure.

 

So he does not believe in a higher power . . . big deal. Here is something from a real Eagle Scout and not leader who pretends to be a boy scout. Every scout breaks the oath. Every scout fails in one way or another. We are flawed human beings. If not believing in a god is all this guy did he is a better scout then most and surely better then all the moron leaders who think they are scouts.

 

There are few enough eagle scouts, and surely few enough who come back to teach other scouts. Every one of them is to be valued. He has a flaw, great, we all do. So to all you close minded holier then thou authoritarian wood badge wannabe scouts, get bent. That goes double for the person who ask how this guy got eagle in the first place.

 

John Lowell Kelly

Eagle Scout

Baton Rouge, LA

 

[Compass 10]

Merlyn_LeRoy: "As usual, you, like so many other BSA supporters, turn a blind eye to this."

 

Not blind, just indifferent. You brought it up, remember?

 

"I guess you're not aware of the ACLU lawsuit to remove all BSA charters from government agencies..."

 

No, not aware, but again, indifferent.

 

"the rules by which the US government must act are also pretty obvious, yet the BSA continues to charter BSA units to government agencies that can't exclude atheists."

 

I would say it's up to the Chartering Organization to understand the ramifications of chartering a Boy Scout troop. Remember, its not illegal for the Boy Scouts to operate this way, it's only illegal (your assertion) that these Chartering Organizations are operating Boy Scout troops.

 

"Would you see anything wrong if government agencies ran youth groups that didn't allow Jews? Would you see anything wrong if public school ethics programs were run by people who considered no Jews to be good citizens, and all Jews to be dishonest?"

 

Of course. As I said before, if you perceive that laws are being broken, feel free to take legal and/or political action.

 

As I mentioned in my earlier post, some want to cherry-pick the program. Some also cherry-pick my earlier post when they respond to it. As I stated earlier:

 

"I can't verify the accuracy of the original quote, but I can comment: no, I do not agree with the original statement and characterization of atheists."

 

Let me ask a question: why would you want to associate with a group and program that you disagree? How about another: at what point did you realize that the Boy Scout program had such values?

 

[Bob White 20]

Accu40,

The BSA does not ask what you believe. They require that you have a belief in a greater spiritual authority and that you demonstrate that that through service to that belief. Duty to God and country not God or country. A scout is reverent, not was but now isn't.

 

Now I admit that there are some individuals who twist this into expecting traditional Judea-Christian standards, but that is not the BSA's practice or policy.

 

I don't think because people disagree with Mr. Lambert's choice of non-belief that they disrespect it. I think they dislike it and there is nothing wrong with that. We make choices everyday between things we like and dislike, and we base everyday actions on those decisions. We wear clothes we like, we socialize with people we like, we eat food we like. Scouting likes it members to be reverent and it has the authority to restrict membership to only those people. There is no malace to the rule, only purpose.

 

Bob White

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

 

bob white:

>That does not change the fact that if a government agency chooses to charter a scout unit, they do not have the authority to lessen the joining requirements.

 

That also doesn't change the fact that government agencies can't legally charter scout units that exclude atheists.

 

As to OGE, class-action lawsuits always take a long time; it took about two years for the original suit against Chicago to be settled, and that didn't even go to court. As to military chaplains, I don't know of any court decisions, but in any case, it doesn't compare because military chaplains serve all soldiers, whereas a BSA unit excludes people based solely on their religious views.

 

Compass:

>Let me ask a question: why would you want to associate with a group and program that you disagree?

 

I don't; I want to remove unlawful government support of an organization that denegrates atheists, just as some people wouldn't want the US government to run "whites only" youth groups, or have school ethics programs run by someone who thinks all blacks steal.

[Compass 10]

DeLukas: "During my years in scouting I came to hate most troop leaders."

 

This very sad.

 

"The leaders forget that they are there to help and teach the boys. Scouting should be about the boys, not the leaders and not the by-laws."

 

Many do forget. However, there are always rules, regulations, procedures, by-laws, etc. everywhere and in everything. Most members of any group basically agree with and abide by the rules, etc. of the group.

 

"To many scout leaders are the type of people who should never be given power over other people. They are close minded 'holier then thou' authoritarians who are more concerned that their commands are followed then if the boys are having fun and learning in a safe environment. Sure they come in with good intentions, but most show their true colors under pressure."

 

Sounds like you've had some bad experiences with some bad leaders. Others, including myself, also have had bad adult leaders.

 

"So he does not believe in a higher power . . . big deal. Here is something from a real Eagle Scout and not leader who pretends to be a boy scout.

 

I'm a real Eagle Scout. For me, it is a big deal. You're not suggesting that lying is ok, are you?

 

"Every scout breaks the oath. Every scout fails in one way or another. We are flawed human beings."

 

We all make mistakes. Leaders are also flawed human beings. Do you have a problem with leaders because they, too, are flawed, or because they happen to disagree with your opinion in this matter?

 

Are you implying Mr. Lambert is simply making a mistake, error in judgement, or whatever? We're not talking about a slip-up here.

 

"There are few enough eagle scouts, and surely few enough who come back to teach other scouts. Every one of them is to be valued."

 

I value all of the Eagle Scouts who hold high all the values expressed and taught in the Boy Scout program.

 

"He has a flaw, great, we all do."

 

I doubt Mr. Lambert would characterize his belief as a "flaw."

 

"So to all you close minded 'holier then thou' authoritarian wood badge wannabe scouts, get bent. That goes double for the person who ask how this guy got eagle in the first place."

 

You sound like you are very angry. I am sorry if you have misunderstood the nature of the program. When did you realize that a Scout was supposed to be Reverent?

[acco40 95]

Bob White,

 

I fully understand and accept the fact that the BSA does not ask WHAT we believe only that we DO believe so to speak. I have no problem with that requirement.

 

I'm just stating that it is very difficult to get a good metric on what someone believes. Also, beliefs change over time.

 

However, actions are much easier to measure.

 

You can tell by the forum posts on this topic how decisive this issue is. We've got "defenders", "haters", etc. I find it very difficult in my work with Cubs, to put to much emphasis on religion and religious teachings. That is for their family to instruct them. I had one boy whose father was Jewish and whose mother was Christian. He was a very introverted and smart boy. He read the Webelos requirements and commented to me, "I guess I can't get my Webelos badge because I don't go to church." Did I cut him some slack. You bet I did. I told him to quietly reflect, think about the issue and made sure he understood that "going to church" was not the requirement. His family gave him no religious instruction. I feel it is not my place (as a den leader) to do so except only at a very high superficial level if at all. The scouting program can do wonders for boys like these, regardless of their stated "beliefs."

[Rooster7 11]

I value all human life. However...

 

I don't value all Eagle Scouts any more than I value all Christians or all [fill in the blank]. I value what an Eagle Scout is supposed to be. Just like I value what it means to be a Christian. If someone is awarded the Eagle rank, but that person does not represent the values of Scouting, then the honor has no meaning. If someone claims to be a Christian, but does not show repentance for a sinful lifestyle, then one must wonder about his self-professed faith. The Eagle Scout award is not presented for accomplishments done in the past. It's supposed to be a proclamation of that Scout's character and ability. So, when Mr. Lambert or Mr. Kelly demeans a fundamental principle of Scouting - "Duty to God", I doubt that they can truly call themselves Eagle Scouts. They have as much claim to that honor, as a non-repentant Christian has for salvation.(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[DeLukas 10]

It has been a long time since I got to be part of an internet flame war.

 

However, there are always rules, regulations, procedures, by-laws, etc. everywhere and in everything.

 

And not all of them are good or just.

 

I'm a real Eagle Scout. For me, it is a big deal.

 

Good for you. Want a cookie?

 

You're not suggesting that lying is ok, are you?

 

Oh, you think Im stupid and will fall into your trap. You want me to say, No lying is wrong. Then you say, Well he lied every time he said the oath. We will handle that in just a moment.

 

Are you implying Mr. Lambert is simply making a mistake, error in judgement, or whatever? We're not talking about a slip-up here.

 

No. I am saying he has what the BSA bigwigs and fanbois would consider a flaw.

 

I am sorry if you have misunderstood the nature of the program. When did you realize that a Scout was supposed to be Reverent?

 

Mr. Webster says:

 

Main Entry: reverent

Pronunciation: 'rev-r&nt, 're-v&-; 're-v&rnt

Function: adjective

Etymology: Middle English, from Latin reverent-, reverens, present participle of revereri

Date: 14th century

: expressing or characterized by reverence : WORSHIPFUL

- reverently adverb

 

Main Entry: 1reverence

Pronunciation: 'rev-r&n(t)s, 're-v&-; 're-v&rn(t)s

Function: noun

Date: 14th century

1 : honor or respect felt or shown : DEFERENCE; especially : profound adoring awed respect

2 : a gesture of respect (as a bow)

3 : the state of being revered

4 : one held in reverence -- used as a title for a clergyman

 

I dont see the word God in there. Plus, in a world where we are accepting of people of different faiths and ideas its time to update some wording anyway. Unless you are going to say the Boy Scouts should be a Christian only organization.

[DeLukas 10]

So, when Mr. Lambert or Mr. Kelly demeans a fundamental principle of Scouting - "Duty to God", I doubt that they can truly call themselves Eagle Scouts. They have as much claim to that honor, as a non-repentant Christian has for salvation.

 

You make the assumption that I am not a Christian.