Mandatory Training rumors again

[CNYScouter]

While at our councils Scouting University last weekend I heard from 2 different people and at 2 different times, one a District training Chair, the other a District Commissioner (from a different District) that in the next couple of years that National is going to make training mandatory to be a registered leader in the BSA.

 

I asked both of them about the loss of units because of Mandatory Training but both said that that our council is prepared to lose units due to not having enough trained leaders to recharter the unit.

 

I know that our council tried mandatory training in the past but as nldscout pointed out our council would have seen 40% of our units being dropped due to not having enough trained leaders and I dont really seeing our council dropping this many units (~180)

 

Has anyone else heard anything along these lines?

 

[Eagle92]

Haven't heard anything about this yet, but my question is this: what will be considered a "Trained' leader? I ask becasue we already have controversry with the WB and WB21C courses. I also ask because when I updated the training records of our leaders, Some of the courses that folks took to become trained were not listed in Training Book or in the registrar's book of training codes. I talking about folks who have been in Scouting for a long time, have trained folks, earned the Scouters training and/or SM Key, but because their course is not coded, they are not trained.

[perdidochas]

If this mandate allows for online courses to count for New Leader Essentials, I don't see the problem with this.

[CNYScouter]

If had to make a guess about what is considered a "Trained' leader it would be the same as the requirements to take WB21C which would be the same for a leader to wear the "Trained" patch, NLE (or the new course coming out), YPT and the Leader Specific training for your postion.

 

I don't think it is a bad thing that an adult leader who took training a long time ago be required to take new courses to be refreshed in the current BSa program.

 

After being involved with a Troop that hadn't sent anyone to training in over 10 years because the current SM and ASM's are considered trained, even though they did their training in the "Urban Scouting' days (mid 1970's) or before.

Requiring them to take the current training courses and learning the current BSA program would have been a good thing.

[evmori]

Training (NLE, YPT & position specific) should be required!

[kenk]

Yeah, but that would mean that our Troop Committee Chair might no longer be able to redefine the Scouting program when it suits her!

 

The extent to which the Boy Scout program is defined is stunning. Help and training are EVERYWHERE, and the program as defined works! Its too bad that people don't read the materials, don't take the training, and then struggle when their version of the program doesn't work.

 

The one that gets me going is when Scoutmasters and/or Troop Committees try to run a troop like a pack. (OK, I'm calming down now)

[Stosh]

I asked about WB21C and thought maybe I would go through the training part to get a feel for the new program and was told it wouldn't count unless I did the ticket too. Does that mean I have to turn in my beads if I decide to take the program? If not, can I wear my WB necker when I train instead of the one for the newbies?

 

It's kinda tough to have put in 20 years with BSA trained in Cub Basics, Webelos Outdoor, SM Fundamentals, Crew Advisor Basics, WB, University of Scouting BS, MS and working on PhD, current with Safe Swim, Youth Protection, and they consider me not trained. Kinda is embarrassing to sit through classes that one once taught.

 

So in fact we have the caste system of the Trained Elite, the Not-so, But Kinda Trained and the Untrained Untouchables.

 

I guess I'm a little more worried about BSA losing good leaders rather than units with untrained leaders. They could end up doing a pretty good self-inflicted wound along the way with such attitudes.

 

Don'tcha just love this scout politics stuff?

 

Stosh

 

Stosh

[Crew21_Adv]

Fellow Scouters,

 

Greetings!

 

 

This topic has come and gone over the years. (I'm slightly afraid that someone might quote one of my previous post, so I hope I don't contradict myself today)

 

To CNYScouter. No. I have not heard about units not being able to recharter, and loosing units due to this current rumor.

 

If you view the Centennial Quality Unit or the previous Quality Unit, there is an amount of basic training that Scouting request for all immediate contact Scouters.

 

I have never heard anything from national sources about being retrained, except for curriculum that has an expiration date (YPT now states 2 years on the online certification, Saftey Afloat/Safe Swim Defense have been 2 year expiration for a while).

 

Here is a scenario I would expect....

 

Progressive training, I can appreciate. A trained Webelos Den Leader who has completed every level of Cub Scout Specifics should attend Scoutmaster/Assistant Scoutmaster Specifics and IOLS to be trained in the troop level. But why go thru NLE again.

 

Then the next year, the same new Assistant Scoutmaster youngest son becomes a Tiger Cub. Back to the same Pack. Our previous Webelos Den Leader is current in YPT and already trained thru Cub Scout and Boy Scout Specifics. No need to alienate them and command them to attend mandatory training again.

 

Confirm that they have the credentials, yes. Retrain them, why?

 

Another Scenario.

Let's say Aunt and Uncle (previously trained in Cub Scout Specifics) in a downtown city really believe their yougest nephew really belongs in the Pack their own son just graduated from a couple of years ago.

 

Again, Confirm that they have the credentials, yes. Retrain them, why?

 

I concur with Mandatory Training for those with immediate contact or direct leadership of a Den, Pack or Troop. If nothing more than to abide by Safety and Youth Protection.

 

Peronally, I do not concur with "Mandatory Re-training". Upgrade training, yes, continuing education (Roundtable) yes, and advanced training, yes. But I don't concur with mandatory re-training.

 

With some youth sports, a volunteer cannot coach until they have completed the mandatory safety training. Possessing the skills in that sport are a plus, but safety is even more paramount.

 

Again to CNYScouter. I would not be suprised if national BSA soon makes certain training levels for certain positions absolutely mandatory for recharter, and councils would eventually be willing to assume the loss.

 

Its unfortunately, but I would rather lose a unit, lose the numbers, and have the families searching for a nearby "trained" Pack or Troop. Rather than having my council slapped with a few million dollar lawsuits for a missing finger, broken bone or worse.

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

[CNYScouter]

Crew21_Adv in your scenario with the Aunt and Uncle previously trained in Cub Scout Specifics requiring them to be retrained, IMO, would depend when they took the training.

 

Its only my opinion, but if the Aunt and Uncle had done training 20 years ago they would need to redo training.

 

I started again this year with Tigers.

Even in the 5 years since my next oldest son was in Cubs, the Cub Scout program has gone through enough changes that I am glad I redid Cub Leader Specifics.

 

In my council to retake the training you can volunteer to be a trainer for Cub Specifics.

I help do this training and at the end of the course the CD filled out a training card for me and I was considered trained in Cub Leader Specifics.

 

I just became Pack Trainer for my youngest Pack.

I just had to do the one hour break out session for Pack trainer to be considered trained.

 

I just think that if you are going to be a leader in the BSA you should be current with the training.

 

How often does the training change?

Once every 10 or 15 years?

 

NLE and Leader Specific training for a position can be accomplished in one 8 hour day of training.

Is taking one day every 10 years or so to become current with the training too much to ask?

 

In no way I am suggesting that with every position change you need to take NLE, but if a new training syllabus has come out since you were in the new position last, I think that you should be required to take the new course.

 

I think we are looking at a perfect example that is coming up.

NLE is being replaced with This is Scouting.

 

IMHO, with a "Manditory training" requirement to be considered trained every registered leader should be required to take this new training, no matter how many years experience you have.

 

And yes I will take the 1 hour or so to do this once it becomes available.

 

[Crew21_Adv]

CNYScouter and Fellow Scouters,

 

Greetings again!

 

 

Good points! I can empathize to a limit.

 

I agree new training is important, staying current is important, but do we label previously trained Scouters as Un-trained? Can some of these items be conducted by distance coaching or one on one, vice classroom attendance.

 

Some Scouters (or returning Scouters) have alot of available time on their hands. Others are busy every weekend, if it is not work, then there is Scouting, youth sports, church, etc, etc, etc.

 

I've done both, full work shifts on weekends. And other years, I've done Scouting every weekend for 3-4 months. Sometimes having to decide which Scout event I will attend.

 

Like a few friends. I have had to submit request thru the boss at home, to miss certain events so that I may have fun Scouting. Usually I have to pay an expensive dinner and date night (squeezed sometime between Scout nights).

 

So, I can empathize with some busy parents and busy Scouters.

 

I have also had Scouting friends whom live 2,3, or 4 hours from the nearest training, who have sacrificed an eight hour work day (even on Saturday) to attend a one hour training session. If I visit their Troop or Pack, I expect to see them applying the program as prescribed. If they have previously been trained and maintain YPT currency as always have or exceed two deep leadership. Then I love their fellowship, but I don't want them to get up at 0300 and drive to my town for a 0800 "repeat" session, then depart for a late night arrival.

 

Maintaining currency is a minor issue to myself. (i.e. Does a previously trained Scouter understand that there is a huge mental and developmental difference between a 6 y/o Tiger and a 17 y/o Eagle? Does a previously trained Scouter know how to submit an advancement report? Have they read thru the G2SS?).

 

I am happy if they achieve Specifics (or previous Fundamentals) once. Similar to a Boy Scout going thru a BOR. They've been tested. Do we need to retest them again?

 

Achieving the Leader Specifics for that age level at least once, and maintaining YPT and Safety training. Those are my greater concerns.

 

I would love to see 200-300 Scouters in the district training during each session. But, I am happy if they have been previously trained, and are current in YPT/Safety.

 

I've just read thru the EDGE curriculum posted on Scouting.org, I too will probably attend the "This is Scouting", if I'm not the one presenting it. But I'm not enthusiastic about asking my entire district (specifically those already trained) to come in to receive the "This is Scouting". Especially not those whom have to clear a busy scheduled Saturday or drive many miles and hours of travel to come in for an hour of training (which is the next generation of training they've already received).

 

When (and if) national determines that a training is mandatory or has an expiration and renewal date (like YPT and Safe Swim Defense), I'll gladly notify my fellow Scouters that they must attend to achieve currency. But if a council trainer or council committee member gets a wild hair growing somewhere and states that my fellow Scouters are "un-trained", solely because they have not attended the recent edition of training. Whoa!! Standby! (Who died and made them National?)

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv(This message has been edited by Crew21_Adv)

[FireKat]

Ok - call me strange but I sit through training any chance I get. I always pick up new things because no two classes are the exact same (unless it is the electronic type). I am probably going to sit through a training session again that I just did a bit ago just to get some of the newer leaders to go to it. They do not feel comfortable in going without someone that they know. (I hope I do not make the instructor uncomfotable to see me again so soon!) I have done this for many years in the fire service. I sat through more EMT classes than I can count and many times the instructors knew me and knew that I knew more about human anatomy and physiology than they did (MS degree in it). I still learned things.

Maybe the BSA needs to set up some type of continuing education program.....(voluntary not manditory)

[anderle]

Training is all well and good - if you can get it. In my district they offer the basic training once a year and then canel parts of it when they have scheduled it during a time now one will make. I've been a SM for almost 2 years and can't get the trained strip because I can't get to a IOLS event. They offered one on Oct 31, no one signed up becaus e we all had family commitments and then cancelled it. They didn't have one scheduled last spring so therefore I'm "untrained". BTW I was a trained scouter in the early 80's but those records were lost and I had been out of it for the 20 years in between.

[CNYScouter]

Last night I attended a council-wide commissioners meeting.

 

Although this was not the main topic of the meeting, our council commissioner let us know about some of the changes that he has been told will be coming and mandatory training for all contact leaders will be initiated from National sometime in late 2010 or 2011.

 

This would be YPT, the new This is Scouting that replaces NLE and Leader Specific.

 

In the after the meeting, parking lot meeting, I asked him about mandatory training.

 

He said that he heard this from the NER president in the monthly regional conference call they have.

 

He went to say that up until now the BSA, on the national level, would not discuss or consider mandatory training

 

This was all he had for now as they are just putting together details and he wants all of our commissioner staff to prepare their units for this.

 

There should be no reason that anyone has to travel 4 hours for YPT or NLE.

 

Both of these courses are available not only as an in-person class, but are available online and on a CD that can be done on any PC on your own time.

 

If you cant get this training locally I would call your District or Council Training Chair and ask for a copy of the training.

 

One other item that came out of the meeting last night is that we will be seeing more and more items available online.

 

Training will be moving online through MyScouting.

I already see they are working on placing the tour permit on this site.

 

[Eagle92]

Anderele,

Did you ever get the Scouters Training Award or SM KEY? I ask because if you got either, then you should be considered a fully trained leader since being a Trained leader is one of the requirements. If so then your council should accept that as proof of being fully trained.

 

In reference to continuous training, yes it's good but sometimes not possible. Some districts are small and don't have the interest to get a specific course going. That was one of my problems. Another problem is time. I don't know about other councils, but it seems as if there is something going on every weekend related to scouting. OA, COPE, Eagle Weekend, MB University, Pow wow, camporee ad nauseum. Then you got to add in family time. Let's face it happy spouse is a happy scouter

 

Then there are other challenges. One of my biggest challenges as training chair was getting enough staff to teach the courses. And for a variety of reasons: no DE for a long period of time, an inactive council training committee, listing the previous dist. training chair once the council committee was established, etc, so the possiblity of having multi-district training and/or sending folks to other districts was not an option since no one knew when other district's training was. Fortunately this situation is getting better in my council, but it still has a ways to go.

 

Another challenge was training records. I had folks who taught at university of scouting, WB, various training courses, PTC, etc who were considered "untrained" by the council. Again the records were messed up. Hopefully things will improve in the records area by national since the records are supposed to be portable. trust me after moving to 4 councils in a five year period, they are not as I have constantly had to send in copies of training records, and that is for the courses that provided them to me. One of the councils did not issue the pocket certs.

 

[BrianScout]

And then there's my case; unprepared trainers giving inadequate training; wasting my time and money in the process.

 

If the training becomes mandatory, they'd better get some good training sessions going. As of right now, my advice (at least in my Council) is that no one should bother wasting their time; and I've always been one to push for as much training as possible.

 

Brian