The Adults Who Cross-over

[Eamonn 61]

I suppose we could debate the relevancy of the skills needed to become a First Class Scout.

However the requirements as they stand now are the requirements.

I covered the opening for the Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmaster Specific Training a week or so back.

We looked at the qualities of a Scout Leader.

"Comfortable in the outdoors" was on the list.

There were 21 participants at the Training. One or two were people I knew as they seemed to have been around for a very long time and came from Troops that have a active program.

A few I'd seen around the Council doing their bit with Cub Scouts.

A lot were people I'd never met, seen or knew anything about.

I was a little surprised that about four of the participants were from Troops that were just starting up. Brand new units.

One man who was silly enough to sit near the front?? Was there in full uniform, with the blue tabs and a Pack Committee Chairman patch.

A really nice fellow.

As you may know the specific training doesn't offer a lot of hands on or outdoor skill training. (In fact I think offering it as a one day course is not the way to go. It's too much information and hard on the participants sitters.)

There is a knot relay in the syllabus.

I was looking at what was going on. It wasn't hard to see that this poor guy didn't have an idea.

I made a point of sitting next to him at lunch. He said how much he was enjoying the course!! He was very proud that he could now tie two knots. I really "Put the squeeze" on him to push him into attending the Outdoor Training. He is going to be the SM of one of the new Troops. They are starting with a over sized Webelos Scout Den that is crossing over.

He did sign up for the Outdoor Training.

I know the Training will be good. I'm organizing it and have selected an outstanding team of leaders who in the real world come from the better Troops in the Council.

I'm sure that over the Training weekend they will do above and beyond to help this fellow. But it's only one weekend.

He isn't in the same District that I'm in.

I tried to find out who the District Training Chair is for that District, only to find that they don't have one.

Roundtables in our Council stop in May and restart in September.

I wish I had the time to take these poor guys under my wing, but I really don't have the time.

I have offered the use of some of the Sea Scouts to visit the new Troop and cover some of the outdoor stuff. But the Scouts are very busy and distance is a problem.

I really feel we need to do more to help this guy and people like him.

I'm just not sure what.

I'm only helping out with these Training's as there seems to be a problem.

I don't have the time to return to the District or Council level in anything that doesn't have to do with Sea Scouts (As we are the only Ship in the Council, you can read into that what you like.)

I did call the District Commissioner and ask if she could try and make sure that a good Unit Commissioner was assigned to this new unit. She spent 20 minutes telling me about her problems, mainly not having enough Commissioners.

The DE for that District is not the outdoor type.

So I'm worried that we are going to start a new unit, with adults who don't have the skills they need.

I wonder if a year from now, if we will be asking ourselves why the unit didn't make it?

Eamonn.

[evmori 11]

This is one of the reasons I don't like the new specific courses. Too much tunnel vision!

 

The BSA needs to get back to teaching outdoor skills to the adults! How is an ASM supposed to help a Scout with his outdoor skills if the adult hasn't got a clue?

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10(This message has been edited by evmori)

[SR540Beaver 116]

Ed,

 

That is what the second half of SM Specific is....Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills. It teaches adults all of the skills needed for a boy to reach First Class. No SM/ASM should be wearing a trained patch until he has completed both the SM Specific and the IOLS course and can not attend Wood Badge without having done both. Skills are being taught to adults who want to learn them.

[John-in-KC 311]

The problem is that introduction is just that... an introduction.

 

A now old Army adage is "you will fight as you have trained."

 

I've been involved in some form of fieldcraft for 40+ years now. TASK REPEITION is vital to task mastery in a lot of fieldcraft.

 

Do we ever wonder in the Advancement forum why we see Scouts do the task once, then get it signed off???

 

Surprise: That's how we train the adult leaders. We do as we were trained to do...

 

IMO, the outdoor skills training is a mile wide and an inch deep. Only the hard work of someone like Eamonn can overcome that.

 

 

[SueM 10]

In our district, we do the BLT & IOLS in March so that we can get the new leaders in as soon as possible after crossover and we do them 2 weeks apart and we can weave the 2 together a little better and things are still fresh in their mind. We form them into their patrols at the end of BLT and then they have the week inbetween to have a Patrol meeting and get their camping things together and plan their outdoor experience. It's ALWAYS cold for the IOLS weekend too..

 

sue m.

[Eagledad 2792]

>>The problem is that introduction is just that... an introduction.

[Eamonn 61]

The problem as I'm seeing it - Is that unless these new people go out and look for a mentor or a place to learn the skills, we (Me) are not doing very much to help them.

We hear a lot of people say that they don't have the time to take training.

But it seems that we need to look at a way of finding more local Trainers.

Clearly it's not the role of the DE or any pro.

The friendly helpful unit commissioner, seems to be a thing of the past.

I'm doing what I have been asked to do, because the Training Committee is having problems.

I feel bad for the new people, I feel worse for the new Scouts who we make a promise to in the Scout Handbook. A promise that if they remain in the new unit isn't going to be kept.

If the "Every Scout deserves a trained leader" is to have any real meaning; something has to be done to train new leaders before we go about starting new Troops.

Eamonn.

Barry,

I started this before reading your posting (Rory wanted to go chase a few Robins.)

Part of the problem is timing.

Cross over is normally (not always) in Feb.

Trying to get two courses in, when the Training Committee is not up to par (Why else dig an up old has been like me?) is hard. Summer camp in the well established units has been planned for about a year. Much as I think people might want to help, they have their own Scouts and program to tend.

Eamonn

 

(This message has been edited by Eamonn)

[MaScout 10]

..."always some degree of unqualified adults starting troops, but adding women increase the problem by 10 fold." Whoa there! Them's some fightin' words there, Eagledad!

 

Why 10-fold? Why not 2-fold...as in once for untrained men and once for untrained women? Personally, I am better equipped, trained, and capable than any of the men in our troop. I've had many people both in and out of Scouting say that if they were stranded in the wilderness with only one other person, they'd want it to be me. The Native American who has run our summer camp wilderness survival for years sometimes refers people to me for assistance in basic skills development.

 

Yes, we ALL need to practice in order to retain our newly learned skills. Ever hear of "see one, do one, teach one"? It's a great adage, and it works! Keep teaching it. Teach your Scouts, then have them show you, then have them teach others.

 

Our OLT is awesome...tremendous effort goes into teaching these new skills. Opportunity is made for practice. Sometimes our District holds Scout Leader campouts, where the leaders get together to review and compete in their skills.

 

The key is learning it thoroughly the first time, then reviewing and practicing. This is true, regardless of gender.

 

YIS, Ma Scout

 

 

[EagleInKY 14]

Barry's suggestion about a mentor troop is a great idea, if you can find one to help you. The challenge as I see it is that most troops are started because of an absence of the type of troop they want to be in their area. Therefore, a mentor troop probably needs to be geographically in an area that doesn't "compete" with the new troop. In essence, this is what I did when we started our troop. My dad is the CC for a troop in the next county. They are in a different district, different school system, etc. We partnered up with them to go to summer camp the first year. We were next to them in the same campsite. (We acted autonomously, but interacted a lot). We visited troop meetings, campouts and a variety of other events to get an understanding of how they do things. We didn't copy them verbatim (they are too adult-run for my taste), but we got some good ideas nevertheless. Now, three years later, they come to us for ideas. We exchange ideas about troop leadership, patrol system and activities/places to go. It's been a great relationship that I hope will continue for many years.

[Eagledad 2792]

>>Why 10-fold? Why not 2-fold...as in once for untrained men and once for untrained women?

[MaScout 10]

Barry,

No, I was not a Boy Scout. I was a Girl Scout. No, they are certainly NOT the same program. However, in the Scouting program, I was fortunate enough to have leaders who didn't "siss-i-fy" the program. Moreover, I had a family (all sisters, so kudos to my Dad) who were really into camping and outdoor survival. I question who might have been better at lashings at age 12, you or me, but I won't debate it with you. Why not? Because it simply doesn't matter.

 

Experience is a great trainer. Not all people get to experience outdoor skills equally. That is very sad, from my point of view. For some, they are delighted they haven't had those experiences.

 

I agree with your idea of brother troops, too. While we don't have any standing affiliations, there are several troops in the vicinity that we often share ideas & help with. Isn't that what Scouting is all about? "Brother"hood, a common goal to help the youth grow into better leaders, yadda, yadda?

 

While I'm trying to take no offense, and what you have to say may be true in MOST cases, I just have concerns about absolutes...All, always, never...

 

Ma Scout

[Eamonn 61]

I think we are heading toward dangerous waters.

Of course there are females who have a wonderful understanding of Scouting and have mastered the outdoor skills.

There are a lot of males who do more to "siss-i-fy" the program, than any female.

I'm happy to leave the demographics to those wiser than I.

While I might be over simplifying what we do? I still like to think Scouting is a game that is supposed to be played in the outdoors. Most of the stuff we end up doing indoors is in preparation to do it outdoors.

Sure I have seen and know of Troops that have put the outdoor program on a back burner and really if ever do outdoor activities other than a week at Summer camp rushing around enlarging the Troop Merit Badge count.

I think most people who want to come into serve Scouts and Scouting do have their hearts in the right place. They want to do a good job.

But we (who ever we really is?) are not doing a good job of helping them get the skills they need.

The Sea Scout Ship in West Virginia has taken our Ship under their wing. The adults are the most helpful and wonderful people, but they are busy delivering the program to their Scouts. Trying to get get two schedules to work together is really hard.

When I first started with the idea of starting a Sea Scout Ship, I filled out a form on the Sea Scout web page. I was really taken back when I received an E-mail from a person who said that he was my mentor. Soon I was firing off questions and concerns like crazy. When we held our organizational meeting he came from Maryland to help us out. (Yes Sea Bear it was Jerry Crabtree.) Some of the things I asked were really very stupid, but he was kind enough to answer them.

While he didn't ever push he did nudge. He made sure that I met up with the right people and people who he knew would be willing to help.

If the Commissioner team in our Districts and Councils were doing what they were supposed to be doing this would happen, but Commissioner Service just isn't working and I think it's never going to come back.

Unit Service has been replaced by "District Dogsbody".

We don't have real Training Teams, we use people who are good at what they do, but because they are good at what they do, they are busy doing it.

I have no idea how much time this Pack Committee Chairman will devote to being a Troop Scouter?

I'm also aware that all the good books say that we need to train new leaders before they start new units. Sadly we seem happy to pack them off to NLE and set them free.

Of course some will make it and become great Scout leaders. Some will just become overwhelmed and because the system isn't working will quit.

Eamonn.

[Lisabob 13]

Leaving aside the question of the skill level of most women entering the Scouter ranks... (though I admit to having the same reaction as Ma-Scout)

 

 

I think Eamonn has hit on a really important issue. OLS and Woodbadge both help teach rudimentary outdoor skills. This is not the primary focus of the current WB, one ought to be able to learn some things from one's patrol mates at the very least.

 

But...then what? Having had exactly three weekends of outdoor experience (1 in OLS and 2 in Woodbadge), a brand new leader with no particular skills would be utterly unprepared to deliver a good outdoor program to their troop. Calling them "trained" is silly at that point.

 

Also our OLS program is divided based on entry-level skill. "Newbies" are grouped with other newbies and very experienced (and patient) staff and don't interact that much during the weekend with other, more experienced patrols of scouters. So what a "newbie" patrol gets from OLS is very different from what a more skilled group gets, yet it is the newest group that needs the most. My point is that the knowledge gap going into the course persists, and might even be widened, by the end of the course. Not surprising I guess, as one weekend can't possibly make up for a lifetime of experience (or lack thereof), but it is something to keep in mind when we talk about training and the utility of OLS in particular.

 

Because of the above, I actually think it would be a good idea to have different levels of OLS and expect people to attend multiple times. But that's probably not too realistic.

 

Whose job is it to help build a cadre of truly competent outdoors-men and -women?

 

1. The COR, who is supposed to recruit appropriate adult leadership? Well, around here the COR is usually a ghost or shadow at best and hasn't got any clue who the adults are, let alone what skills those adults might possess. They are a name on the page, that's it.

 

So...

 

2. The new leaders themselves? Hopefully they understand how woefully unprepared they are to deliver a strong outdoor program. And they'll look for other volunteers who have a different skill set and then leverage that resource for all it is worth.

 

3. District folks who encourage setting up new units? In my (limited) experience, these folks are more interested in securing a Charter partner and getting some boys signed up and getting paperwork processed, and less concerned about the more pragmatic stuff like how to make it work, longer term.

 

4. Other units in the area? I love the mentoring idea brought up by several folks but I just don't see it working out real well for a lot of troops. In our town, we have three troops already plus two more in the next town over. I know leaders in all of these and there are some excellent, helpful people. But they are either very busy with their own troop, or they aren't interested/able to be leaders (if they were, they'd be doing it with their own troop already). The chances of them taking time to work with somebody else's troop to get those adults up to speed are pretty low, just due to time limitations.

 

So that leaves me thinking it is up to the new troop leaders themselves to seek out other adults with the skills that they, themselves, lack.

 

By the way, I see the same problem within existing troops where new leaders who cross over from Cubs with their boys may have very little outdoor experience. Teaching these new parents is crucial for the troop's long term success since the highly skilled, established leaders are probably going to move on at some point when their boy quits or ages out. But, it often doesn't happen. And then we get into the question of running two programs again (as discussed in a different thread a little while ago); one for the boys and one for their parents. When you have a large group of untrained or inexperienced yet officially "trained" adults come in, you almost have to do this parallel training for the new adults if you want them to lead and succeed in the future.

 

I wish I had a good answer Eamonn! If you develop one, let me know.

 

Lisa'bob

[EagleInKY 14]

I won't rehash my district's training woes, except to remind you that we have had one Boy Scout training session sense we started our troop three years ago. And, that one was three years ago... We haven't had outdoor leader training this CENTURY. (Cub Scout training and YPT are the only training they offer with any regularity). The reason, I'm told by the district folks, is that there are so many scouters out here with loads of experience, they don't "need" to send their leaders to training. They get it "on the job".

 

Personally, I wish there were minimum requirements for starting a troop. I think at least two leaders should get the full suite of training. We did that, and it helped us tremendously. I've seen other troops who started up in the past couple of years that are really struggling because they haven't had that.

 

I also think we should make some training mandatory for review, as we do with YPT. (Although I have yet to see that enforced around here). Of course, I think that is one of the primary reasons behind roundtables, but that has not been effective here either.

[MaScout 10]

I'm thinking "out loud" here... Hmmm...

 

Our Troop (boy's decision) likes to put on a "New Scout campout" every spring, a couple months after we get a new raft of Webelos bridged in. Hmmm... What if the adults held a "New Leader's campout" alongside them...??? While the older boys teach the younger Scouts, what if the more experienced Scouters coached the new parents in the same skills? Hmmm... I think this idea is starting to grow on me... Ideas?

 

Beyond that, what about the idea of holding a "Scouter's Skill Development" campout? Or maybe during Spring Camporee or other large gathering of Scouts & Scouters, have an area for the adult leaders to practice & review their skills with leadership who is good in those areas? These might even be youth who teach adults... We've had Scouts teach Pioneering skills at OLS, as they were some of the best in the council...Know & utilize your resources, and all that. Besides, it's good to be reminded that sometimes youth really do know more than us!

 

Lots of planning. Might not get a good turn out, especially initially, but if returned to each year, the attendance MIGHT improve... Maybe if some of us developed a plan, we could pool our ideas, and it wouldn't be as much work... Hmm...