OK EL Prove it.

[Scoutfish 16]

Not much room for interpretation?

 

"AVOID large sheath knives. They are HEAVY and AWKWARD to carry, and unnecessary for MOST camp chores EXCEPT for cleaning fish."

 

There is sooooo much room for interpretation here:

1) AVOID: Avoind, not "Prohibited" , Do not use" , "Not allowed" "Age/rank restricted" , or "Council/ District/ troop regulated".

I could go on.

 

2) Heavy: To who? You? Me? My son? Yours? That one is entirely dependant on the individuals strength, health, and athletic ability.

 

3) Awkward: Same as # 2

 

4)MOST: Most...meaning not all, and actually ( taken in the context written,very appropriate at other times.

 

5) EXCEPT: This one specifically cites an example, which is an extention of #5 which just implies that there are other circumstances of potential usefulness.

 

Now, I'm not saying anybody should or ought to use, have, possess or own a sheath knife. But to say - that sentance - gives any finite and defined answer is just incorrect.

[Oak Tree 15]

Scoutfish, the way I read Basementdweller, he was asking why not make it a clearer statement of "Sheath knives are prohibited" and was saying that his suggestion left no room for interpretation. I think you are agreeing.

 

Personally, I'm fine with room for interpretation on a lot of items. Letting the adult and youth leaders apply their judgement is often appropriate, given the wide range of situations, experience, ages, etc., that are present in the various units. Trying to come up with black and white rules for too many things ends up with situations where the rules do not appear to make sense, and then people start to ignore the rules.

[Scoutfish 16]

WHAT? I'm agreeing? That's no fun! I thought I was arguing! LOL!

You know....right after I posted my comment, I thought to myself: "I bet he's being sarcastic, and I'll be the only one who doesn't get it!" LOL!

 

[Scoutfish 16]

Oak, I agree! I like interpretation too...on MOST things.

I guess with the exception of a scout cutting his hand off, I'd like to leave it to the leaders to determine on a one on one basis for what Scouts do. My son my very well pass a NAVT SEAL sniper test witha BB gun, while the next scout of the same age, height, grade level may not ought to ever hold, much less own a BB gun because he's too careless with it.

Likewise, your son may earn a whittling knife as soon as age allows while my son may still be too careless at 18.

I'd like the den/pack/troop leaders be able to assess and judge each scout on his own merits and abilities.

[raisinemright 13]

I'm BALOO trained, never heard that one.

 

Lsat month, our Webelos were at a Camporee. It got down to about 25 at night. No comments were made to us or any others.

 

This weekend, we were camping at a local park. There were a few other troops there with plenty of Webelos around who camped. Last night was lower 30's. No comments.

 

In Michigan, I can't tell you how many times we've been out camping and the temp went 10-15 degrees lower than expected. What are you supposed to do, pack up and go home at 3am?

 

There is a big difference between winter camping where there's a foot of snow on the ground and th etemps never go above 20 and camping like htis weekend where it's 60 in the day and 34 at night.

 

 

[Eamonn 61]

Eagle92

Most of the time it's a little warmer where you live than where I do!

I've lost count of the times that we have had an early snow in October and then not long after the Council summer camp site is snowed in until spring. (The site is a stones throw from Hidden Valley and Seven Springs ski resorts.

Have to admit that I'm not all for these type of rules. I know that the people who made the rule at the time really did have the good of the Scouts at heart. My hope would be that common sense would prevail, if not from the Scout Leaders, then from the parents. My big fear is that little guys go to camp with "El Cheapo" gear, end up being cold and unhappy then never want to go again.

I agree that leaders who know what they are doing will do everything they can to ensure that this doesn't happen.

 

Not trying to hijack the thread.

But...

Being as this is a Scouting Forum if something isn't meant to kind? Then it isn't in keeping with the Scout Oath and Law. While I know that I have at times been guilty of the "I'll show him" type posting. Maybe as Scouter's we need to try and hold ourselves (And myself!) To a higher standard?

Eamonn.

[Eagle92 110]

Ea,

Hopefully you got my PM on the post. I do want to apologize not only to E but to everyone else. My post was a serious one, but the tone it takes was not what it was intended to be. In rereading it last nite, I noticed that it did sound unscoutlike, and I PMed E on it.

 

Just to clarify, in NC, October and March are considered prime camping months as it is not too cold, not to hot and no mosquitos

(for the most part). If there was a national ban like the one E's council has, then that would cause problems for us in NC.

 

Also in reference to indoor "camping," I use to work at the USS KIDD DD661 that had an overniter program for youth groups (and a darn good one for the $15/nite price if you ask me ) And we would get alot of CS packs camping out on the ship in the winter months. This was a great opportunity for packs to do some overnite stuff, and keep warm for those with the "El Cheapo Mucho Stuff"

 

Again tyhe post was not suppose to be unscoutlike, rather it was suppose to be a serious question on what limits are put on CS in the OCt. to Apr. time frame.

[Oak Tree 15]

Eagle92, your willingness to consider that you might have made a mistake is admirable and I would like to see all posters show that type of self-evaluation. But I actually didn't think that Eamonn's comment was directed at you.

 

Basementdweller said about his own posting: "it wasn't necessarily meant to be kind"

 

To which Eamonn replied: "if something isn't meant to kind? Then it isn't in keeping with the Scout Oath and Law."

 

I agree with Basementdweller that the original comment from EL was not all that kind, but it's not clear that responding with the same tone is really the way to go. And certainly calling someone a "jerk" (now appropriately edited out by a staff member) is not good netiquette on this forum.

[Eagle92 110]

Oak,

I actually read the E's post after I sent them PM, I reread my post, and ralized it sounded very unscoutlike, kinda sarcastic, which again wasn't the intent. Just wanted that cleared up.

[Stosh 3452]

Gee, I just weighed my Leatherman and my sheath knife. Guess which is lighter!

 

Let me see....

 

Pliers? I have a needle nose in my fishing tackle box, but have never used it elsewhere. Screwdriver? Tough on the blade, but I've used my sheath for that purpose, tip on the Phillips screws. File? Never use it on campouts. Cork screw or bottle opener? Yeah, right. Knife blade? Even wash except the heaver/longer blade on the sheath does better on food and fire prep than the Leatherman that is tough to clean after food prep. Handle? Sheath wins out here. More comfortable and leaves less blisters.

 

Nope, for the most part my sheath knife is more serviceable than the Leatherman. If I'm going into the backwoods for serious camping, I even add to the sheath knife, a belt axe. That combo can handle any situation, even being able to safely opening the old beer bottles on the axe head.

 

Stosh

[Basementdweller 608]

Because you are a Scout does not mean your a door mat.

 

I only call'm the way I read'm them and have you noticed EL has yet to respond.

 

If your gonna quote the rules make sure you know them.

 

Scoutfish I thought your post was pretty funny.

 

I understand the need for latitude and varied interpretations in the GSS. As noted what is acceptable in Florida isn't in Alaska, same goes for Urban vs Rural Scouting. Rich Vs Poor Scouting.

[Mafaking 10]

 

I went back and read 2 pages of EL posts.

 

He doesn't represent himself as a rules deity. Most of his comments are in line with what other's post quite often, "follow the rules, our unit does it this way and when I was in..."

 

A call out thread for an innocuous comment about Cub Scout winter camping is a little over the top from what I typically read on these forums.

 

 

[Eagle92 110]

Stosh,

Be careful in NC with your knife. I just ordered a repro 1800s knife from CCTP to use camping. I was advised by a retired LEO that there are some state prohibitions to some knives, and certain counties and cities have laws prohibiting knives over a 3 inch blade.

 

Hopefully since my knife is a repro of a historical knife, it falls into a class exempted by state laws, ie historical and heirloom weapons. County and city laws don't have those exemptions from my quick internet search.

[Stosh 3452]

I'm not to worried. When I get hauled into court in my full BSA uniform to explain to the judge why I'm carrying a BSA sheath knife and a BSA belt axe in their BSA leather sheaths, I'm sure they may cut me some slack.

 

I know the 3" rule for knives, but if they limited all blades to 3", then one has the problem of cook knives one carries in the back of the van on the way to the campouts. I generally take the belt knife/axe off when driving anyway, it's a real pain to have jammed into your back while sitting in a modern seat.

 

I'll be careful when I'm in NC. I'll make sure my 18" bayonet is put away and 12" D-Ring Bowie is packed out of sight. I also have officer swords that need to be hidden as well.

 

Come to think of it, I could probably be illegal in at least 30 states at any given time. In my home state we have open-carry laws which if one can openly carry a holstered handgun, surely they aren't going to be too worried about a sheath knife on a SM on his way to camping.

 

Thanks for the tourist tip for NC. I'll avoid the place.

 

Stosh

[Eagle92 110]

THREAD HIJACK

 

Stosh,

Now I'm sure some of your hardware will fall into the historical/ heirloom exemption, just avoid Charlotte and Chapel Hill among a few others to be safe. Goldsboro is a safe bet, but we also haev a battlefield nearby that have the living historians coming to.