Den Way too Big

[5570xr2]

I have a concern with one of our dens. It now has 17 boys! The meetings are way out of control (my opinion) but apparently the DLs don't see a problem. They all meet on the same night, as they always have in the past, as one big group. I doubt any of the boys are really getting anything out of the meetings. I have tried to get the CM to fix the problem and separate it into smaller dens that meet separate nights but it just isn't sinking in. I know 6 to 8 is recommended (and now I know why). I'm looking for suggestions on how to approach this. (I'm CC)

[SR540Beaver]

Guess what! As CC, the CM answers to you. Tell him/her the den is too big and to recruit a new DL and ADL. We faced the same problem in our old pack where I was CC. We had a Wolf den that was huge. The DL took it as a slam against her that me and the CM would suggest splitting the den up. She said everyone was happy and it would devestate the boys. What she didn't know was that many of the parents were coming to us complaining about the size and how unorganized she was. She spent her time visiting with the parents and let the boys run wild. We had a husband and wife who had volunteered as ADL's that she wouldn't use and they were willing to take half the den. The DL took it personally and there was some wailing and knashing of teeth on her part, but we got it done to the benefit of the boys.

[johndaigler]

It'll be worth the effort to find an additional DL and ADL. 17 isn't too big for one den -- it's two big for two dens!!!!! that group needs to split into 3. We split 16 into 8 and 8 and now we're 9 and 9 -- and mentally kicking ourselves for not creating the third Den.

[SemperParatus]

I know its too big...but...

 

Are the scouts complaining?

 

Are the parents of the boys in the den complaining?

 

The Den Leaders aren't complaining. The Cubmaster does not seem to mind?

 

Have you been to enough of their den meetings to know with certainty that they are "out of control"?

 

Most times a very large den cannot work. Sometimes a very large den can work. Its not so much an issue of size, but of leadership.

 

I agree that the preference would be 2 or even 3 dens, but if no one other than yourself is complaining then maybe it should be left alone.

 

As CC, you should have a big say in the program but I would not make this a one-man/woman crusade.

 

 

[5570xr2]

Are the scouts complaining?

-no, they are having a blast, but in no way learning the virtues of scouting

 

Are the parents of the boys in the den complaining?

-a couple have mentioned the disorganization, the rest see it as the Baby-Sitters of America, so they don't know any better.

 

"The Den Leaders aren't complaining. The Cubmaster does not seem to mind?"

-nope. we had this conversation before, agreed to split it up, divided up the boys, but it never happened. They decided it was easier to just all meet together the same night they had been meeting from the year before. They usually end up spending half the time chatting with parents. The achievements get signed and they go home happy.

 

Have you been to enough of their den meetings to know with certainty that they are "out of control"?

-yes, my son is in the den. I help out as much as possible, but things are very disorganized. I want to let the DLs 'do their thing' and not step on toes.

 

I am very hands-off with the actual program and rely on CM to handle it. I've got enough to worry about. And yes, I believe it would be a one-man crusade, because we have 2 DLs, the CM, and ACM involved in the den and they aren't complaining. That is my dilema. I may go to our Unit Commissioner and ask that she visit a meeting. Then discuss it offline.

 

Thanks for all the advice.

[ScoutNut]

Bringing in the Unit Commissioner to visit some meetings is a good idea.

 

Also, 2 leaders for 17 boys is simply not enough. There should be another 2-4 assistant leaders too. Then, if you end up splitting them up, each group will have 1 leader and 1-2 assistant leaders already set.

 

As CC, it is part of your job, along with the COR & committee, to provide leaders. The leaders then need to go to training. Training will help them provide a better Scout experience for their boys.

 

 

[Cardinal]

We have similar problems. One den did split to its own benefit. Program for the kids that split off (and despite our efforts to avoid this, it did end up that way) has been small, but solid.

 

Other den tried to form two subdens. They refused to get new den numbers or to get separate nights. They are now pretty much still one den; actually a pack within our pack.

 

Even after all this drama I do not know how I would do this in the future. District was not really any help. Lot's of talk about recommendations.

 

Having dens that are too large are not good for the boys or the program, and discourage others from becoming leaders. It is daunting!

 

Any ideas? We had many nights of sleepless struggle and stress. Lost some "friends" too.

[CubsRgr8]

We had a similar discussion at our pack leaders meeting last night. It really has to do with setting up expectations (such as maximum den size) and then enforcing them. Ideally, these expectations will come from the charter organization. It then becomes the committee chair's job to communicate these expectations to adult leaders when they are recruited and to parents when they sign up their sons.

[OzarksOsage]

My Tiger den has 12 boys in it, and we did consider splitting it into two dens. However, after nearly completing the year we've reconsidered and we're not going to split. If it grows to 15 or 16 we'll split then, but not yet. The boys and families all work really well together, and I have two eager assistant den leaders lined up. After the initial shock of having 12 Tigers, at least 12 parents (often 15 or 16) and two or three younger siblings in our house at the same time, we all got used to being a bit cramped and even enjoyed it. One thing we discovered was that with everyone, including the Tigers, having schedules that are FAR too busy, that on any given day scheduled for an outing that some of the families could not attend. If half or three quarters of the den can attend, that's still a really good workable number. If the den had six boys and half could attend, it hardly seems it would be worth the effort--for the den, or for the hosts of the outing. Similarly, with busy schedules, we found it better to keep our schedule full rather than cut back on the number of activites and meetings. If a den gathers only twice a month, and a boy has to miss one of those gatherings, he could be looking at a month between meetings. It seems it would be quite easy to lose momentum with that arrangement. With a full schedule, if a boy has to be out one week, he can step right back in the next. So, if the parental support is there, keep the den big. We have a great time.

[mjengels]

I have sort of the came question.

With our Den we have 2 dens both with 6 (12). I would like to slpit it into 3 dens 4 each. Our den leader does nothing all the kids do is play games they don't learn anything I do all the badges and electives with my son. 2 of us parents really want to be Den leader and assistant next year and we dont think the leader with resign. His heart is not into it for the boys it's just a play date for everyone. I was hoping me and another dad could make our own den with our 2 sons and 2 more children. Then we would have 3 dens. How many is min in a den? We would get so much done and have fun with projects. Less fooling around and more learning.Who do I ask?

Thanks

[ScoutNut]

Talk to your Committee Chair (CC) about your concerns. If the Den Leader is not doing their job the CC and the Charter Organization Rep (COR) can take that job away from them. They do not have to wait until the Leader steps down.

 

I think that 4 boys in a den is to few. Especialy if that would give you 3 dens with only 4 in each. According to BSA sources, 6-8 boys is the ideal number for a den.

 

 

[OneHour]

mjengels, from the little experience that I have with cub scout and from what I learned, here is my observation: if you make it all work and no play, then cub scouting will be a chore and the boys will loose interest. Cub scouting is suppose to be a fun time to play while learning and it involves the cub scout and his family. A lot of the requirements are designed to be worked by a cub scout and his parent at home. To me 4 boys is too small of a den. Granted that there are a lot that can be done with a small group; however, if one or two boys were to be absent, then you don't have much of a den with 2 boys. Also, the boys need to be in the environment of 6-8 boys so that they can learn to work together and they start to learn the concept of leadership (denner) over their peers. By the time they get into boy scout, they will have been introduced to the concept of patrol and its leadership style, namely boy-lead.

 

Starting from tiger through bear, you'll find that the den tends to play a lot more than have structured requirements to work on and eventually more structured den meetings at the bear level. Even if they have the requirements, the den leader usually works it into a fun game, craft, outing, etc.

 

Reaching webelos, the den meetings become structured with the denner (and den chief) assists in develop the den meetings and help run the den meetings.

 

So, to me, the ideal size of a den is around 6-8 boys. To say that you would like less fooling and more learning is a recipe to loose boys. Remember that a boy has about 8 hours of class time already before he gets to the den meeting. He will not look forward to another 1 to 1.5 hour of class time again. There are plenty of creative ways to teach while having fun.

 

My suggestion to you is to suggest and work with the current den leader on how to incorporate the requirements into the fun and game. He has the right idea of fun. He just needs to work in a few small requirements here and there. The Cub Scout's "Program Guide" is a great resource to set up a den meeting that includes fun and requirements as the same time. For example, the boys can learn how to tie a couple of the knots (about 10 minutes) and have a relay race on tying the knots (20 minutes) or how about learn about collection (5-10 minutes) and have an excavation expedition in the yard for various things (20-30 minutes). The remainder of time play steal the bacon or simon says or ... etc. There are so many things that can be done to make a boy wanting to come back.

 

I learned my lesson several years ago as a new tiger den leader. I didn't think that the den was doing what cub scouts are suppose to do. As you are, I thought that they need to learn something about scouting and the requirements are the only things that need to be done in the den meeting. One or two of the boys stopped coming to the den meeting. I then realized that they don't want to hear lectures (the parents seem to like it, but not the kids). Yes, they need to do the requirements, but not through lecturing. I learned to be creative in incorporating fun in the lecture. Another example, for the bear requirement of folklore, I had a brief intro to folklore and the proceeded to show them the Walt Disney's "American Legends" complete with popcorn and drink. They loved it! I requested that lot of the requirements are to be done at home and the parents (akela) can sign off (until they get to Webelos)

 

Good luck,

 

1Hour

 

 

 

 

(The above information are only my own opinions. Please do not take them as guidances and/or teachings for I am not qualified to teach the exact the BSA's methodologies or guidelines!)(This message has been edited by OneHour)

[Prairie_Scouter]

As a former CC and DL, I guess I can take a shot at this, but remember, your mileage may vary.

 

6-8 boys is usually the ideal size. 4 is getting too small for the boys to really have much interaction. Anything beyond 8 usually gets unmanageable. So much for the numbers.

 

As the CC, it's up to you to determine den assignments. That's part of "the job definition", but anyone who tried to do that without the input of the CM and the DL is asking for trouble. So, in this case.....

 

Everybody seems happy, but on the other hand, it doesn't sound like the den is getting much done. Now having said that, know that some dens don't plan to work on advancement in their den meetings; they see that as a parent/Scout activity. Personally, I always thought it was good to spend at least SOME time working on advancement projects. So, I think you need to do a couple of things. If everybody's happy with the size of the den right now, you could tell them that they can stay that way IF....

One. They structure their meetings to get some Scout-related things done (so it's actually a den meeting and not a play group), and

Two. They get at least 2 more assistant den leaders. 17 boys with 2 leaders is not a good ratio at all.

 

I can't see how 2 leaders can help 17 scouts get any projects done in the time of a usual den meeting, and really give them any time. If you don't do anything else, you need to help them get more leaders.

 

Now, if you really think you need to split them....

If the den has been that way for more than a year, it'll probably be hard to split them, unless they've already developed a "natural split" of their own, just because of their size. If it's even feasible to split them, I'd go for 2 dens, 8 and 9. That's still kind of large but going to 3 dens is border line; if they lose anybody with a den of 5 or 6, they're getting too small. And, as Murphy's Law has it, you'll always lose scouts from the smallest den 1st

 

Main thing is, is everybody's happy and you think that they're actually getting their rank work done fairly and honestly, regardless of how, you might consider just not messing with it. But, you're the CC.

 

And remember, it's only an hour a week!

[Cardinal]

Consider this:

 

Recommendation 6-8 boys per den.

 

You have a den of 8 and gain two. Now you have an over large den or two overly small dens.

 

So, clearly you have to improvise somewhat. But you must avoid a large social group. That's not scouts. Just as church must include God, scouts must include some portion of the scout program.

 

For Tigers we found that we had a lot of "family" events since the parents were coming and each family had a second child of the same age. So, having only three tiger cubs worked well. The boys, however, thought it was too small.

 

For Wolf and Bear dens I think having around 6-9 is the right size. If the den gets to 10 I would consider splitting it. Also, a good time to push for more boys.

 

With Webelos you need the smaller size. You are doing more learning and the boys will need more one on one attention. So 5 isn't really too small.

 

Splitting is tough. Even the adult leaders become attached to their kids. Yes, "their kids". So expect trouble. You just don't knwo where it will come from.

 

Be open. Consider various options for splitting. It is my opinion that you should not use the first group in to keep together. That makes it seem that you weren't a den. Also, change the den numbers. Perhaps you can have them related to the old den number. But don't let anyone feel like they were pushed out. Even the old leader should "retire" the old den number.

 

Consider letting the boys each pick a best friend. But it must be mutual (and preferably done by the parents, not the kids). If it isn't mutual, it becomes a chain that could include them all .

 

If the split is at the Webelos level you can emphasize the move to "patrols" and get them each a new name.

 

Good luck.