How far does "Boy Run" Run?

[John-in-KC]

Scoutldr, in discussing Out of Council Camps, wrote:

 

"True, unless you're eleven. They don't remember that Oceanography MB was easier than it should have been...they do remember toilets. And if the camp next door has them, you'd better have them, too. It's not about what the Staff or BSA thinks is important...it's about what the CUSTOMERS think is important. That's why our camp is on a steady decline...the old-timers have refused to listen to the customers...if it was good enough for us in 1966, it should be good enough now. NOT!"

 

Again, I put this malice aforethought in I&P, that we might have some freer expression than in Open Discussion, Program.

 

Billy is a Tenderfoot, age 11. He wants an air-conditioned dining hall, good food, and lollies/kybos/s%%%%ers that don't stink. The Billys and Joeys (12) and Bobbies (13) and Johnnies (14) and Davids (15) help pay their way to camp, some in more amounts than others.

 

Billy's Mom and Dad want him to come home having learned something, having been challenged, having grown. Mom and Dad have the duty to provide for the best interests of their child.

 

Which is more important? The quality of the staff and the program facilities (COPE and Climbing courses in great shape, good weapons at the ranges, a Nature director who teaches in a local JuCo during the school year, but helps the youth staff really get into the MB work for the kids during camp...

 

OR "...they do remember toilets."

 

To me, one of the SM's key program tasks is to guide the SPL and PLC away from the ephemeral and to the solid.

 

My Eagle son turned 18 this summer. He's a tubist in the band, he's interested in hard sciences. Beyond Scout Camp, I've sent him to a band camp and a science camp.

 

Want to know something? I didn't make my selections on:

- Lowest price.

- Best facilities.

 

I made my selections on what gave me the best bang for the buck. I wanted great teachers, good learning tools, and a great environment. I passed on camps with "all the bells and whistles" because they didn't add value to his education.

 

The PLC has a vote, but if the decision is A/C and flushers over quality program, someone is being ridden roughshod, and his name is Mr Scoutmaster and Mister Committee Chairman.

[Lisabob]

I'm in agreement, John. Another way to think about this is to consider the popularity of BSA high adventure programs. These do not generally include luxury accommodations and in fact may be pretty far from that standard. Rather, they are popular because of the program and the challenge that they offer to the scouts.

 

Similarly, one of the most popular "elective" MBs for boys in our troop is the wilderness survival MB. Hardly about having access to flush toilets and A/C cabins!

 

I've known camps with gorgeous facilities and weak programs. Yes, they may do ok in terms of filling spaces, but often they have a very high staff turnover rate from one year to the next, and few returning campers. That, to me, is a sign of an unsuccessful camp in all ways except, perhaps, making money. And honestly, even upscale camps are not usually big money makers!

 

A strong program and a great staff can make up for a multitude of minor shortcomings on facilities. The same just cannot be said in reverse.

 

[Beavah]

Yah, ain't we a bunch of old-timers, eh? I never had a problem droppin' trou in da woods when at the huntin' camp, and wipin' off with snowballs.

 

This goes back to Gonzo's "wimps" thread. There's quite a few lads these days who've grown up in hyper-sanitized and protected ways, with sparklin' and disinfected indoor plumbing their whole life.

 

A stinky old wooden pit latrine is major trauma for 'em. I kid you not. Every camp has tales of young'uns who try to "hold it" for the entire week because they can't muster the courage to approach the kybo. Those tears might not be homesickness, they may be latrine fright! And most of us don't even recognize da need to help 'em. I sure didn't, until a fellow commish showed me the way of things. Who'd have thought?

 

The competition these days is camps with modern facilities, very well-organized, friendly, and customer-centered program, good food, and three times the cost. Plenty of "values" too, quite a few have a strong Christian bent. Yeh add that up, and some kids just think those others are a lot more fun. Can't be sure whether it's da kybos or not, but I guess they play a bigger role than I thought!

 

Beavah

 

[Eamonn]

A couple of years back, me being the kind fellow that I am???

I took all the people who worked on the District Community FOS to dinner -At camp!!

Yes I picked up the tab ($3.50 a head!!)

I'd guess the average age of the people who came up was - Late 40's early 50's.

My thinking was that I'd feed them and then let them see the Scouts in action and where the money was going.

A few of them had been Scouts and had been at the camp a long time back.

The camp has undergone a lot of improvements.

A new lake (beats the creek which was more like a big puddle!!) New shooting sports ranges. (God bless the NRA)

I don't remember ever being at the camp when any of these guys were there. So I don't know how good or bad the program was.

It did strike me as odd that no one mentioned the program.

They remembered the Dining Hall (The building not the food) and the old stinky toilets -Which have all been replaced with Shower blocks.

Back when I was playing bartender a lot of people knew of my involvement in Scouting (The popcorn display might have had something to do with it??)Talking with these guys the big thing they seemed to remember from their youth was the Pine Wood Derby cars and races.

I have a great story about the Scouts back home and chemical toilets -But it's late.

Good night!!

Ea.

[scoutldr]

Thanks, Beav for helping to make my point. In the parents' and scouts' simplistic view, if all you want is to make Eagle, then you need merit badges. If all you need is merit badges, you can get them at any camp. So, all other things being equal, they'll vote for the comfort. For older scouts, I can't get them to go at all any more...after 4-5 years at a camp, what else is there to see or do? Which gets back to Hops' comment on patrol method. If the older troop leaders won't attend, there is no patrol method. SOmeone mentioned in another thread that we should go ahead and adopt the LDS model...segregate by age levels at age 14. Perhaps not a bad idea...

[John-in-KC]

Scoutldr,

 

Sounds like your Camp folk need to come to the H Roe Bartle Scout Reservation or Pony Express Council's Camp Geiger and experience the Tribe of Mic-o-Say.

 

I can promise you, each session, every session, every season, our camp has 150 fourth year campers, 120 fifth year campers, and on the order of 100 sixth year campers.

 

The Scouting network that is the Tribe in Kansas City makes things happen.

 

Have a great program, and they will come.

 

In Friendship and Warmth, John(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)