Self-run camps?

[Beavah]

Since his troop runs their own week long summer camp,

 

This was from the Provisional thread, eh?

 

A troop that runs their own summer camp?

 

Now that's somethin' I haven't seen in a long, long time. I figured it had gone the way of the dodo what with all these corporate advancement camps.

 

Can the original poster (or anyone else) share the details?

 

 

[GernBlansten]

I've posted in your other thread about patrol methods at summer camp and touched on this.

Our council camp offers a program (Eagle Point) that allows a troop to design their own summer camp experience. The troop can pick and choose what camp resources they need and what they will provide themselves. They can bring their own food or get it supplied. They can use the swimming pool and lake. They can use the gun and archery ranges. They can even "hire" counselors to provide merit badges. So at one end of the spectrum, a troop could just want camping space and no camp supplied stuff doing the rest themselves. At the other end of the spectrum, the troop would be getting what a typical summer camp program provides. Years ago, before my time, our troop did do this. But the commitment of parents must be high since they are responsible for the program. The boys from our troop that work as counselors at this camp enjoy working for that division. Its not the same old grind week to week.

Personally, I think it works fine for troops with older boys. If you have a lot of first years, I think a more developed program is better.

[Lisabob]

Our troop ran their own camp program last summer, in part to accomodate a trip to yellowstone (in fact, one of our scouts and his dad wrote an article about it that was published in Scouting magazine this spring)

 

Neither my son nor I were present, as we had a major family event to attend that had been scheduled for the same week. However, there's been a lot of discussion and from what I have been told by various people who did attend, the results were somewhat mixed.

 

On one hand, the trip was a great experience that allowed the boys (and most of the adults) to see parts of the country that they would never have seen otherwise. They spent time in the true "back country" with experienced outdoorsmen. They saw wildlife up close (within reason). They bonded. They developed an awe, respect for, and enjoyment of the outdoors.

 

On the other hand most of the adults who went seem to agree that it is much, MUCH harder to plan and implement a full camp program than they ever expected. And as a result, many of the elements of a traditional camp experience (like mbs, first year program, trail to eagle, etc.) did not occur even though they had been included in the plan. For the next few years at least, we will be attending traditional camps again.

 

Having worked for years on camp staffs including as camp director at a couple different places, I admit I pretty much expected this to occur. And I've always been amazed at the number of people who complain that they can "do it better" than a well-run established camp, and yet who have no prior experience with running such programs. I think the experience was still a good one for the boys who went. But I would really encourage anybody thinking about running their own week-long camp to give it a long, hard, look and seriously accept the advice of people who have experience organizing camps before deciding to go that route.

 

 

Lisa'bob

 

[John-in-KC]

One year the Troop of my youth broke away from the Council HA trail (then San Fernando Valley, now Western LA Council's Silver Knapsack). Instead, we went on a weeklong segment of the John Muir Trail.

 

We didn't do this because we thought we could do a better job than the Camp Whitsett (base camp) staff; we did it because most of us had hiked the Silver Knapsack twice.

 

Even in planning a backpacking trip, with an excellent field guide (Starr's Guide is still the best there is for trail study), with excellent ration planning support (Rich-Moor corporate HQ was five miles from our troop meeting site), with excellent opportunities for training hikes (try doing the Santa Monica Mountains sometime) there was still much more to do than when we had followed the Council path.

 

As all have said, it takes high energy and high committment from youth leadership and all the adults, or its not what going to be the "instant idyllic camp" you thought it would be.

[moxieman]

I do not know if they still do it, but back in the early 90's, the largest troop in Lubbock, TX (Troop 157 I think) would not attend the council summer camps (Post and Tres Ritos). They always held their own. Why? 'Cause they'd overwhelm either of these camps and few other units would be able to attend at the same time if they had used the council camps.

 

At that time, that troop was the sixth largest troop in the nation with approximately 120 scouts. No, I don't know what their secret was.

[EagleInKY]

We have one of those mega-troops here (last count I heard was 140 scouts). They run their own summer camp every other year. They rent one of the council's older camps for the week. They have to hire a NCS certified camp and aquatics director (or have their folks certified). They've got the adults with all the skills (medical, police, government, professionals, etc.). It seems to work for them. The thing I don't like about it is that they tend to live on their own "scouting island" and don't really build relationships with other units.

[moxieman]

"The thing I don't like about it is that they tend to live on their own "scouting island" and don't really build relationships with other units."

 

That's the same observation I had about that Texas unit. They never participated in district events either.

[CubsRgr8]

Well, I'm the original poster that Beavah refers to, so here's the scoop.

 

For its 80+ year history, my sons' troop has run its own summer camp. Why this tradition didn't die out when the council opened its various camps, no one knows. I can only guess that it was a strong enough tradition that the scouts and leaders enjoyed. I'm told the troop attended council camps some years, in addition to running its own, but not for the past twenty years or so. Here, in no particular order, are some factors that I think help explain how the troop pulls this off every year.

 

Location

The troop goes to a state forest group campsite in northern Wisconsin (almost Upper Michigan). It's the only campsite on a spring fed lake with no outlet, so there is a lot of peace and quiet, and no interaction with any other campers. The campsite is nestled in a grove of white pine, which manage to mask the smell from the pit toilets quite effectively. There's a decent sized sandy beach, and even a small island in the lake. There are fish in the lake, birds in the air (including eagles and loons), and bullfrogs the size of small cats to serenade you to sleep at night.

 

Key Adult Leaders

The current scoutmaster and committee chairman are very dedicated scouters who learned the ropes of running summer camp about ten years ago from their predecessors. They are currently teaching these ropes to their probable successors, as neither has a son in the troop any more.

 

Support Staff

There are enough of us support staff so that we probably only have to "work" half time. Either you run a support function (primarily the commissary and kitchen) or, if you want to be registered and wear the uniform, you spend time teaching youth in the great outdoors. (I work with second year scouts who are not yet 1C, and this year will also teach the Nature merit badge.) As a bonus, we get to breathe fresh air, eat fresh food (we cook for ourselves), sleep in tents, swim in the lake, enjoy adult fellowship, play cards, etc., and forget about our real responsibilities for seven days. In a very real sense, we get to go to summer camp as much as the scouts, although we don't earn merit badges or advance in rank.

 

Summer Camp Mission

Summer camp is designed to help scouts advance through the ranks to Life Scout. If you're not 1C, you spend the mornings at the Advancement Site. If you are 1C, you work on merit badges. Most MBCs offer two or three, and most of those are outdoor oriented, although there are always several craft oriented MBs (sculpture, basketry, etc.) Afternoons usually include a patrol competition and lots of free time, most of that spent at the waterfront or just hanging out with your friends. Boards of Review occur in the late afternoon or after dinner.

 

Fun Stuff

There are several activities that are unique to each day. Sunday there's Scouts Own and the Scoutmaster's sermon, which is ususally based on one point of the Scout Law. There's an overnight canoe trip for older scouts, and some MBs require a field trip (I hear Forestry is fascinating). There's a 6 mile hike into Boulder Junction (the Big City!) on Wednesday to buy ice cream, candy, soda and call home. Patrols compete to see which one will earn Honor Patrol, based on points awarded for merit badges completed, competions won, and ranks advanced the previous day. The last night, there's a campfire ceremony where all scouts are honored for their achievements during summer camp, even if it's just for "having a great time" (my son two years ago!).

 

Bottom Line

The site is superb, there are enough adults so that they, too, can have fun, the program will allow any scout to advance (if he wants to), and there's enough variety so that every day is a little different.

 

Amy questions? I'll check back and post replies to specifics, or PM if you want.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

bump

[mlg0171]

We ran our own summer camp for the last two years. We are proud of what we accomplished, it was very rewarding for the scouts and adults, but it was a lot of work.

 

Don't do this without a lot of consideration and a large group of capable adults. You can't afford to pull it off halfway. If it turns into a week long camping trip without MBs, First Class Emphasis, swimming, boating, and shooting, it is not Summer Camp and you failed the boys.

 

Will we do it again? Probably, but not every year. One of our reasons for doing this was that we needed something different. Now we've done it two years in a row and don't want to get in a rut, even if it is a great rut. (The boys don't know how good they have it, so they'll still get bored.) We'll likely find a BSA-run camp for next summer or the year after.

 

HIGHLIGHTS:

- 30 MBs were offered to scouts. The scouts signed up for approx. 20 of those, so 10 were dropped from the schedule.

- New Scouts worked on FCE, Swimming MB, and First Aid MB.

- Second year scouts who were not 1C usually worked on FCE for part of the time and MBs the rest of the time.

- One year, the older scouts were given the option of a backpacking trip in the area. We didn't see them until they backpacked into camp near the end of the week. (We didn't offer this the other year because the older scouts got back from Philmont just before leaving for summer camp.)

- We found a place where we could swim, boat, fish, and shoot. Without these activities, we didn't consider it Summer Camp.

- A 2-hour block in the afternoon was reserved for swimming/boating/fishing/shooting. No MBs were offered during that time. Each scout had to be doing one of these activities. No moping around the campsite allowed. If they are in MBs every waking hour, they are missing out on some of the important parts of Summer Camp. Some people have lost sight of that and want their scouts to earn endless MBs when they should be having fun with the friends.

 

REWARDS:

- We have sixty scouts. It is difficult to get to know all their (non-registered) parents beyond greeting them at troop meetings. But we needed many adults to run this summer camp, so we got to spend a week together, getting to know each other. It made our troop stronger.

- In a large troop, it is difficult to get to know all the new boys well. A week of summer camp where we were the MB/FCE counselors allowed us to interact more with the scouts.

- Because we were the MB/FCE counselors, we feel the scouts really earned the badges. Our local camp has turned into a MB factory. This was a major reason we left.

- We had access to boats, shooting ranges, etc. without competing for availability with x-hundred other scouts.

- We did what we wanted to do, on our schedule.

- WE ATE REALLY WELL!

- We charged scouts the same rate they would pay at our local camp, charged adults estimated expenses, and had money left over. Yes, adults would not normally pay at our local camp, but they had a meaningful, rewarding experience and considered it the cheapest vacation they ever took.

 

DOWNSIDES?:

We've discussed the need to be around other troops at summer camp. We're not convinced it is a major reason to go to a BSA-run camp, but it is something to think about. Our desire to keep things fresh will lead us back to a BSA-run camp. I expect we'll switch back and forth.

 

If you are seriously considering running your own camp, feel free to contact me by clicking the "Send Private Message" link.

[eagle90]

CubsRgr8 -

 

Sounds like a good program. If you are in Milwaukee, one year you should try your council camp, Lefeber Northwoods Camp in Laona, WI. They put on one of the finest programs I have seen in 40+ years of scout camping, and have great physical facilities as well. 2008 will be our tenth year at this Out of COuncil camp for us.

[ozemu]

We don't have summer camps. Just not part of the culture although there is a lot of US tv on the box at night.

 

So maybe we can try running our own?

 

We have run week long camps but not with as much parent support as described nor with an emphasis on MB's.

 

I don't know any other Troop that ever ran a week long camp. Maybe I could ask around the District to see if there are other Troops interested.

 

But what are these NCS camp and aquatics directors that you speak of? Besides having a piece of paper what do they actually do?

 

What we have done thus far is just a Troop camp. A long one.

[Beavah]

Yah, oz, we Americans have to seem like strange birds to you.

 

Imagine that you did what you suggested, and you got a few troops in your area together to run a joint, week-long camp somewhere. Kinda cool. One of da guys from another troop is a naturalist and did that. One of your adults with experience taught kangaroo stalking. Kids loved it, because anytime they can be outdoors for a week having fun they learn a lot and have a blast, and of course your scouts and Ventures and Rovers would be doin' a huge planning job.

 

Now imagine that yeh were like us, and Scouting was a Corporation more than it was a movement. So da Corporation puts on summer camps, but they provide the trained people and resources, not the troops. And they set the schedule and activities, not the kids. But with a corporation, yeh can actually buy a big hunk of land and build lots of scoutin' buildings and such and make it available year-round. So there's upsides.

 

Now it's an American corporation, eh? So that means fear of legal issues and lots of state regulation. I mean lots. So a volunteer couldn't possibly handle everything from food regulations to camping regulations to safety regulations to paperwork to inspections, etc. etc. That means da corporation needs a professional staff. And the National Corporation needs to establish National Rules on top of the state rules. And like any corporation, it generates paperwork and rules. Health forms, inspection forms, permission forms, medication rules, firearm rules, waterfront rules and forms and tags, etc. etc. So yeh have to train all these professional staff people about all these forms and rules, so you establish National Camp School (NCS) to do that for at least the core staff in each area (like aquatics).

 

So what yeh end up with is that the average troop here never owns its own property the way that's common in some countries. The camp property is owned by the Corporation (and sometimes sold by the corporation to make money for professionals). That camp property is a lot bigger and more complete with better facilities than troop properties in other countries. The Corporation provides week-long camps all summer where paid professional staff offer programs and troops come and just let their kids do stuff (no patrols, no youth planning particularly, no cooking because there's a dining hall with professional cooks). Those camps come with so much regulation and paperwork that you would simply explode. Imagine the whole first day at camp spent with kids going from one station to another just being lectured about rules and turning in forms and taking tests for tags and signing up for merit badge classes as though they were registering for courses at college. But kids do earn a lot of badges that way, which makes the parents happy to spend da money ($200-$300) for the Corporation Camp.

 

Dat's our life, eh? Aren't we Yanks a bit nuts?

 

Beavah

 

[ozemu]

Sounds like work Beavah,

 

I am the Operations Manager at a School camp site

 

Our Region (Council) has one property in its 600 mile length. Lots of halls owned by Groups (Troop/Pack/Unit/crew combinations)but just one camping property.

 

We don't go there often. We normally rely on canvass surrounded by cows or nut trees. Dining halls sound fairly repugnant.

 

And to run a camp I fill out a single four page form and fax it to one person.

 

But going for a week with other Troops and focussing (in part) on MB's still sounds attractive.

 

If we get going do you want to come along Beavah?

[Gold Winger]

" Dining halls sound fairly repugnant."

 

It depends on the dining hall.

 

Ive been to camps where all the dining hall did was to provide a place to gobble horrible food.

 

Ive been to camnps where the dining hall is part of the program. A song or skit with every meal. Cheering contests between troops and tables. Even presentation of newly earned rank in front of the entire camp.