Need help: New Scout, outdoor camping, gear tips...

[pixiewife]

First off, I love this board! Thank you all so much for all of the tips I have learned so far, after being addictted to this board for the last 48 hours!

My oldest son just crossed over from WBII to Boy Scouts last week. We were able to attend a parent meeting, and one regular Scout meeting. They are going on their Winter Klondike Camp this weekend. We live in MI, it is currently 12, expected to go up to 35ish this weekend. We did receive a list of items, but I am still unsure of what to have/how much to have for him. Here is the provided list:

Minus Zero sleeping Bag

Sleeping mat and pillow

Tote to keep all of personal gear in.

Personal Hygeine kit

Insulated plastic thermol mug

Water bottle/canteen

small back pack to carry on trail

flashlight, with batteries

mess kit - plate, fork, knife, and spoon (optional)

 

This is the entire list!

This is what I have:

20 degree sleeping bag that will be "beefed up" with some fleece blankets.

Foam sleeping mat from the Army Navy surplus

Plastic Tote for gear

personal hygiene

Thermos mug, for hot chocolate/soup, with a caribeen clip for easy hanging on to.

Insulated water bottle with strap

Back pack from the Army Navy surplus store. it has some pockets on the side, and a lot of extra straps that my son said he could use to carry other stuff on it with.

Flashlight with lantern capability. Extra batteries. Small LED flashlight clipped on to back pack.

Small ($.99)First Aid kit, back pack item? Also, larger first aid kit ($5)

2 rain ponchos 50"x80" can use 2 to make a tent, also emergency sleeping bag, or foul weather ground sheet. I bought 1 in orange for safety use in case he is lost, I think this should also go inback pack.

Compass

Whistle

Mirror

Hand Warmers

Water proof bag (about 6"x8")

As for clother he has thinsulate lined snow gloves (2 pair)

Snow Pants and Winter Coat

Long Underwear from local Farm and Family Center. It has 2 layers polyester and a polyester wool blend. Says it will wick away moisture. He only has one pair of these. They are going Fri-Sun., can he reuse them all weekend, as long as he doesn't sleep in them?

Thinsulate lined winter boots

Wool socks

2 Ski mask type knit hats

plain knit hat for sleeping in.

Sweat pants, t-shirt, and sweat shirt for sleeping.

 

Is there anything that I have that you would dump? Is there anything that should be here that is not? Is there something that no matter what he should not be with out? What in the heck should be inside his "trail" backpack?

I think you all in advance for any help tips or advice you can give. I am not an overprotective Mom, but I want this to be a great experience, and I do want him to be safe. My husband is going with them, and I am almost as worried about him! He is not into camping and was never a boy scout!

 

 

[Beavah]

Hi pixiewife! Welcome to da Forums, eh!

 

Ah, your hubby and lad are in for a real treat. Cold-weather campin' is great. No bugs!

 

I'd encourage yeh if yeh can to have your son ask some of these questions of his Troop Guide or Patrol Leader - it will start to get him in the habit of lookin' to the other boys for information. It will also help those boys realize what information they need to be helpin' the new guys with!

 

It's also really hard when we can't see the stuff, eh? There's good foam sleeping mats and bad ones for winter and such. Your son's troop-mates can help with that sort of thing. Also, I think it helps to get to know the mom of an active 8th grade scout - someone who you can talk to and get pointers from who's been around the block once or twice. Seek that person out.

 

Of your gear list, here's just a few quickies:

 

Yes, he can wear one pair of wicking layer long underwear as a base layer the whole weekend. Works fine and is what most of us do, eh? Just use tongs to handle before washin'

 

If yeh can avoid it, don't send him with any cotton (sweatshirts, etc.). Cotton soaks up water like a sponge (or towel!) and cools yeh off rather than keeps yeh warm. Look for cheap, non-cotton "fleece" which yeh can pick up at any discount store these days.

 

His trail pack (or "day pack") can be a large bookbag-type backpack. It's where yeh put lunch, raingear, water bottle, an extra layer for when you stop hiking, etc.

 

Only thing I'd do if yeh want to make him "cool" is look for a headlamp-type flashlight. Much better than any other option, especially since the daylight is short in Michigan, eh? Use lithium batteries, which behave much better and last much longer in the cold.

 

What's gonna happen is your son is goin' to go out with the troop and quickly start to figure out what works for him when he's camping. Mostly, you can trust that judgment. And it gives you a whole pre-made list for birthdays and Christmas and such, eh?

 

Welcome to Boy Scoutin'!

 

Beavah

 

[pixiewife]

Thanks Beavah,

As for the first part, about asking others (him or me) boy do I plan on it! However, we had 1 meeting and are not having another before the campout, this weekend. Also, when we were at the meeting it all seemed pretty straight forward, now that I'm looking at/buying stuff, the straight forwardness has kind of diminished. Thanks for the tip on fleece, I knew about cotton being a sponge, but somehow forgot about this alternative!

Thanks for the welcome, believe me, I've been reading so much I already feel like I know you!

~Pixie

[eisely]

Pixiewife,

 

You do not mention if this is car camping or if they are trekking in some distance. I assume that we are talking about car camping.

 

On the whole your list looks pretty good. Beavah's points are well taken. I would add two suggestions.

 

Make sure both of your campers are equipped with sunglasses.

 

You mention the availability of a plastic "tote" and a back pack. I would probably use an inexpensive duffel bag for this type of outing, lined with a large trash bag to help keep things dry. If your son wants to use the back pack then you need to make sure that it fits. Hopefully you have some instructions from the manufacturer of the back pack to help you figure out how to do that.

[Lisabob]

Hi Pixie,

 

Welcome to the board. I'm in your neck of the woods as well and my son just got back from a camp out last weekend. Here are a few things I'd recommend, in addition to standard advice to let your son pack everything himself (maybe with you nearby the first time or two) so he knows what's in the bag and where to find it.

 

1) Call up or email a couple of adult leaders in the troop and ask them about borrowing gear. I know we have several folks who own way too much stuff to ever use in a year (let alone a weekend) and they're always happy to lend to new scouts. If you make arrangements to stop by their house to pick up gear, ask them to take a few minutes and explain to your son why the gear they're lending is good, how to use it, and how to care for it over the weekend.

 

If you're worried about safety, ask adult leaders how they keep an eye out for frost bite and what they do for boys who are cold (ours typically keep a fire watch on really cold nights, have hot chocolate readily available, and have a stash of extra gear/clothes on hand if really necessary, esp. for new scouts who might not have packed the right stuff.)

 

2) See about maybe borrowing a second sleeping bag if it is supposed to be really cold. A 20 degree bag (and the truth of the ratings varies widely, I've found) with a fleece liner is one thing. A 20 degree bag inside another bag plus the fleece liner will be better.

 

3) My son prefers to sleep in polypropeline long underwear rather than sweat pants/sweat shirt. You may be able to get some good sale deals on these right now (I picked up a new pair for my son at Dunhams the other day for about $15 - top and bottom - but be careful as some of the sale items were cotton waffle weave - bad idea!).

 

4) How big is your guy? Little guys (and mine was/is) have a hard time heating up their sleeping bags, where warmth is really about putting out body heat. For them, stuffing an extra fleece or wool blanket down in the bottom half of the bag reduces the amount of dead air space to be heated and may make a difference.

 

5) Many new scouts and adults simply don't understand that sleeping in everything you own on top of whatever you wore that day is a bad idea. Far better to wear clean/dry clothing to sleep in on a cold night, than to pile jackets on top of the clothing you sweated in all day long. That goes all the way down to the base layer (underwear!).

 

6) The reality of personal hygiene is that there probably won't be much of it on a weekend camping trip!

 

7) The other reality is that most new scouts aren't going to use, and will almost certainly lose, a bunch of little "useful" items we parents might send along like extra raincoats, many extra batteries, a spare ground cloth, second rain coat etc.. Unless your son's troop is doing something as part of the klondike where they've been told they might need this stuff, better to leave it home. Among other things, having lots of little items means more clutter to try to locate and stuff back into his pack at the end of the weekend when he's tired, wet, and cold and just wants to get home. (This I learned the hard way)

 

8) The Day Pack is for what they'll be doing during the klondike activities. Maybe they need a compass with them, or a pen and paper to keep track of activities, or some other little items. If your son's troop travels in uniform, my son has found that keeping his uniform in the day pack means not having to search through his entire large pack for it on Sunday morning when he is preparing to come home.

 

9) I'd get rid of the plastic tote if possible. What exactly was going into it? If it were patrol gear (like, a cook stove or food for the patrol for the weekend) that would be one thing. But if it is personal gear, your son probably is way overpacking and shouldn't need a day pack, larger frame pack, and plastic tote. Keep in mind he'll probably be in charge of hauling all his own stuff around and it might even be a bit of a hike from car to camp site so keep it simple for him.

 

I hope he has a good time! He's likely to be cold, wet, and tired on Sunday but once he's eaten, maybe had a shower and nap (those do my son wonders), I bet he'll want to share all his stories and accomplishments with you.

[pixiewife]

Ok, here's some clarification.

This is a council sponsored event, done each year. It is held at our local Scout camp reservation. They are sleeping in a "hooch"? that is made by the boys there. The way I understand it they will be sleeping on straw, with the hooch over them. On Saturday there are a lot of patrol activities that are competions (I think) between troops. They are doing cooking as a troop. The adults are sleeping in troop tents.

On one hand I think my biggest concern should be him staying warm.

On the other hand, I also do not want him to not have something, and turn out needing it. That's probably going to happen either way!!

Thanks!

~Pixie

[Bob White]

A few tips I will toss in.

 

One key to staying warm is staying dry, Have him follow the packing tips in the Boy Scout Handbook, among them is that his pack and even his tote, should be a bag full of bags. Have him take various size Ziplock bags and group his clothing and gear and packege EVERYTHING in zip lock bags . This will help keep dry things dry, and wet things away from dry things. Be aware that many types of plastic get brittle in cold temperatures. If you has everything in ziplocks then he can just take a gym back or duffel bag rather tha he plastic tote.

 

 

 

Remind him that heat rises, it is important that he uderstands that whether awake or asleep he is lossing body heat from the top of his head. This makes his hat VERY important, It is his regulator for cotroling heat retention. When he gets too warm the first thing toi do is remove the hat, just as if he becomes cold (or when sleeping at night) he should have his hat on. (ive also found it helpful to have a pair a light pair of fleece gloves to wear at night.

 

There are two schools of thought on this next one. Some believe that changing ALL your clothes at night is the best way to stay warm. Some think not. My experience has been the former. Clothes trap moisture in the fibers or in the open cells that at night cause a refrigeration effect, I take the right bag or bags for the weather and wear only some gym shorts a hat and gloves to bed and I stay very warm. My clothes for the next day are in the bottom on my bag so they are warm in the morning or if I need to dress quickly in the night .

 

Finally, the interior of tents are not made warmer by zipping them up tight. The purpose of tents are to give shelter from the wind and precipitation. Zipping them up tight blocks air flow and creates frost and snow like conditions inside the tent which then makes you colder. Pitch the tent with the rear end of it pointing into the wind, then leave the flaps open part way front and back to allow for ventilation, this will reduce or eliminate that frost effect.

 

Winter camping is an adventure I hope he has a fun and healty time out there.

 

One more thing, He should really limit his hot chocolate intake. it is really not the best thing to have out there. It is tempting for kids and is often used by adults to "keep em happy" but as far as being helpful for staying warm or efficient for the body's energy, Hot Chocolate is not a good choice.

 

 

 

[Lisabob]

Hot Chocolate is not a good choice.

 

Not to hijack, but: Care to explain that one a little further Bob? What would you suggest instead (I'm not giving coffee to the kiddos! and most probably wouldn't drink tea) for a quick warm-up drink for a frozen 11 year old?

[Ohio_Scouter]

Hi Pixiewife,

 

Welcome! Everything mentioned so far is great advice for cold-weather camping. I will second Bobwhite's advice regarding hats. More than half of your body heat escapes from your head, so I usually take a woolen ski mask to sleep in. It keeps me warm even on the coldest nights.

 

I would also recommend getting a copy of the backpacking merit badge pamphlet from your local scout shop. It has a wealth of information on packing for cold weather treks.

 

Hope your guys have a great time; we love winter camping!

[Bob White]

Think of it it like this. Would you let your child drink chocolate milk all day long all weekend long. Probably not. Why? Because it is mostly sugar and is not nutritionally as good as other foods would be.

 

While some hot foods will help a person keep warm especially after times of low muscle activity (first thing in the morning after musscles have been at rest) there are better ways and better things to eat during the day than a lot of hot chocolate.

 

Hot Tea, warm Gatorade, oatmeal, would do as good as job as hot chocolate. But given the choice what will scouts choose? Hot chococlate of course, because we are all animals and we wil repeat actions that give us pleasure and hot chocolate tastes great!.

 

Many times I have seen units use hot chocolate as a crutch to keep scouts from complaining. If a scout is allowed hot chocolate any time they are cold, how often are they going to "feel" cold? All the time.

 

We would give each scout a cup of hot chocolate with Breakfast and then on Saturday they were given 2 or 3 packages per person (depending on the temperature) and they could use them when they wanted. We kept boiling water available with tea, and oatmeal.

 

But moving around will keep them warmer than sitting still and drinking hot chocolate all day. Greater warmth comes from good nutrition and muscle activity than from drinking hot chocolate.

 

BW

[AvidSM]

I have a problem with one item on your list - the winter coat.

 

Proper layering would include: a wicking layer, several insulative layers and a outer shell to protect the other two layers from the weather. A hooded nylon outer shell would work as long as it's not going to rain. Otherwise you need a material that is waterproof and breaths, like gortex. A hood plus a knit hat (or even better a baclava), helps keep the body heat better - 1/3 of which you lose from the neck up. I've been in bitter cold weather and felt my neck getting cold with just a hood and knit hat on.

 

By having more than one insulative layer, you can make adjustments depending on how cold you feel or how much heat you are producing from activity. One thick winter coat does not allow you for much ajustment - it's either on, zipped open or off.

 

The more options you have to make adjustments, the more comfortable you will be as the weather or your activity level changes. Being comfortable means you are not too hot - which could lead to sweating, or not too cold, which could lead to hypothermia. Too much sweat and your wicking layer and insulation gets wet and you will be too cold.

[Beavah]

Yah, I don't want to hijack this, but I'll be quick.

 

Hot cocoa (or gatorade, another pure sugar) are fine choices for a winter campout. Tea and pop, however, is not as good a choice; at least not the caffeinated versions which are diuretics. The lads need both the calories and the fluids in the cold - keepin' 'em hydrated takes some creativity. Now I'm not sayin' let 'em have gallons of the stuff, or that cocoa should substitute for real food. But it should be just fine.

 

Soups I think are one of the best ways to play the nutrition/hydration game in the winter. The cup-a-soup instants work well, and a soup with a meal can be great.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[John-in-KC]

Lots of good advice here which I'm not going to repeat.

 

I'm going to talk about those two nights, on the ground, in a tent.

 

Lisa, who is also in MI, can confirm, but I suspect the ground temp in your neck of the woods is something less than 32F... freezing. At night, the layering system includes separating the Scout from the ground!

 

When I was a little younger, and slept on the ground in the field, in the Army...

 

1) Floored tent or not, I had a base layer of a tarp of some sort; usually rubberized or plasticized nylon. That was my personal guarantee of a good moisture barrier to the ground.

 

2) Above that layer came INSULATING FOAM matt. It was most assuredly not a comfort layer; its job was to provide airspace between me and the frozen ground. Have your son check with his PL, Troop Guide, or ASM about the matt he uses. Do this before Friday night!

 

3) Now your son can add a comfort layer of foam field mattress.

 

4) I've learned that human body on plastic, even inside a sleeping back, generates sweat moisture and doesn't help the bottom of the sleeping bag be a good warming tool. Whether its wool or polypro, if I'm not backpacking, I put a moisture absorbing layer between the matts and the sleeping bag.

 

5) Finally I put my sleeping bag onto the bed I've made.

 

6) In very cold weather I've been known to add a wool blanket overtop the sleeping bag. At the time, I used a -10F down bag inside an Army cover; even so, there are some places in the world where that extra layer is welcome!

 

7) Last but not least, I reserved a set of dry wool sweater and long johns to change into as I got in the sack. Others here have commented about taking wet gear to bed. It really does not help that first hour.

 

As you go down this trail, pixiewife, the right person for you to talk with is the SM or ASM keeping an eagle eye on your sons patrol. HIS right persons to talk to are his PL and TG.

 

Enjoy the journey

[Lisabob]

Yup, it will be colder on the ground (or on straw). What part of the state are you in pixie? Feel free to send me a PM if you want. I'll keep my fingers crossed for your son that he doesn't get freezing rain which I think is worse than snow for new scouts to deal with.

 

Bob, thanks for the explanation about the cocoa, I see where you're coming from on that. AvidSM, one thing about winter jackets is that most new scouts (in MI anyway) at least own one of these already! Sometimes you have to work with what you know people have on hand. Funny thing though, when I went out to where our guys were camping last weekend to help with our new scout orientation day, during the daytime most experienced scouts were not wearing their jackets and instead were using the layers as you recommend (except the one lad running around in his t shirt of course...). One of our "new" moms was shocked. Guess I'll share your insight with her next time I see her.

[pixiewife]

Wow!

Thank you all SO very much for all of the help!

Acctually, I feel a lot better about what I have, and how things are going to go. Seriously, I think I am now more scared for my husband than my son, since my son is acctually more willing to read the things I tell him to, and listen to me when I tell him things. Plus, he was doing very well when I was giving him 'what if? ' situations and quizzing him.

Lisa: as far as the plastic tote goes, that was not my idea. Apparently, the entire troop is trying to switch over from personal duffle bags of stuff to personal totes of stuff. One tote per scout. I guess they think it will keep their stuff dry, and also they stack easier in the trailer. I triple checked this, since I didn't want my son to look ridiculous when he got to camp!

Thanks again, because I really feel like we are ready for this!!