Flag optional on uniform?

[Gold Winger 9]

So? That refers to two contients. How many of those countries have "America" in their name?

 

We don't call Germany the "Federal Republic."

 

We don't call Mexico the "United States."

 

We don't call China "the People's Republic" unless we're differentiating between good China and evil China.

 

Since Brazil was mentioned, we don't call it "The Federative Republic".

 

You see, most countries are commonly called by whatever comes after the "of" in their name. Unless you're trying to avoid offending a bunch of banana republics.

 

Let's all join hands and sing the PC anthem "We are the world".

 

 

[Liz 101]

"Reciting patriotic pledges is no different than reciting your last name (a 'Pledge' of respect for your ancestry) or calling someone 'Sir' or Ma-am'. It's called respect, and it's important to pass along."

 

Is this generally believed to be true? If so, I now understand why people think I'm so strange for not reciting the pledge of allegiance. I am fully aware that precision in the English language is degrading quickly, and that causes many misunderstandings. In the past, a "Pledge" was more or less synonymous with an "Oath." If the words to the Pledge went something more like, "I hereby identify with the Flag as the symbol of the United States of America, and acknowledge my citizenship therein," I would not have an issue with reciting it. I can no sooner "Pledge Allegiance," however, than I could swear an oath in court (which I don't do, either). It has absolutely nothing to do with me hating my country, or the flag, or even having a general animosity toward either one. In fact, I thank God on a regular basis that he has blessed me with living in this beautiful country, where we enjoy a great deal more religious, political, and personal freedom than is typical in most other nations. However, to swear an oath -- any oath -- is against my conviction as a Christian, expressly forbidden by my Savior (Matthew 5:33-37), to whose Kingdom I owe my first allegiance regardless of the nation in which I happen to reside (which happens to be my other issue with pledging allegiance to the flag -- even if an oath were permissible, my oath of allegiance would have to be to God rather than Nation).

 

Xyzzy, I get around the problem personally by not wearing the BSA uniform. I have no problem with _wearing_ the flag, since to me that only implies my national identity. But as long as I remain inconspicuous and I'm not in uniform, other people are free to think that I'm simply ignorant by not saluting and reciting when the Pledge is performed during BSA activities. When I attend Scout camp with the boys, I generally find an excuse to be in the Ladies' room during the twice-daily flag ceremonies. I have no wish whatsoever to call attention to myself just because my understanding of loyalty, patriotism, and the swearing (or pledging) of oaths, is drastically different from how most other people understand these things. When I am counseling merit badges or supervising activities, I will wear the Troop T-Shirt, but not the Class A uniform.

 

I do not belong to a denomination which prohibits the saluting of the flag or the pledging of allegiance, however I do find that when the subject comes up, roughly half of the people within my denomination have independently come to the same conclusions I have on the matter. My boys both participate in flag ceremonies and pledge allegiance to the flag, and I do not discourage them from doing so, although I do encourage them to THINK about these things rather than just follow the crowd. There was a time when my younger son came to me with a concern that perhaps saluting the flag might be the same as idolatry. After looking up the word "idolatry" in the dictionary, and reading some scripture on the subject, he felt assured that the Pledge was not the same as idolatry (and I agree) but the point is that he thought it out and came to his own conclusion. This is exactly one of the main things that I want my children to learn from their experience in Scouting.

 

So... there's my $0.02, for what it's worth.

 

-Liz

[SSScout 1615]

Thank you Liz, for speaking a good deal of my mind. See the previous thread:

 

Pledges, Promises and Creeds: On My Honor...

 

Wearing a uniform is another issue. What is ON the uniform is (was?) the issue in this thread.

 

I knew a troop that wore the state flag on the sleeve under the USFlag. Had little replicas made up special. Looked good. Official BSA? ummmmmprobably not. Course, then too, I know another Troop orders their Patrol Badges from Canada because they like the look better. No one has called them on that either.

 

Oh, Welcome to the Forums, Liz...

 

 

[Liz 101]

Thanks, SSScout! It was an interesting thread. It's good to know I'm not the only one out there who thinks about these issues.

 

-Liz

[Hal_Crawford 15]

As someone who lived in Brazil I can tell you that from their perspective, "American" (Americano) describes anyone who lives in the Western Hemisphere, including Brasileiros. They usually refer to those of us from the "EUA" (Estados Unidos da America also abbreviated EEUU) as "Norte Americanos" (North Americans).

 

As to why the flag was added to the uniform. I don't know what actually prompted the BSA decision but I do remember that in the early seventies there was a push back against the protest movement and suddenly flags started showing up on police and fire uniforms. Some (including my father, a retired Army officer and veteran of two wars) argued that it violated the Flag Code as much a hippie sewing the flag to the seat of his jeans. The Code was subsequently amended to allow for the use on uniforms. The BSA seems to have jumped on the band wagon at that time.

[docmorgan77 10]

I remember SDCC having us add them to our uniforms when we under-going World Jamboree shakedown, made some sense before we left. But when we arrived in Japan made even more sense, uniforms of every nationality were everywhere, a sea of color. I on more than one occasion had to use that flag to navigate when going threw the various subcamps, as did others in the reverse.

 

(...and just for fun. As I was about to write this, I noticed the "Sponsor" to the forum here was a set of FLAG SUSPENDERS" for $19.95 How's that for punctuation on the subject.....)

 

I wear the flag, from then until now. My choice, my right, my "Legacy".

 

former HM2-USN NAC,FMF,AW

[Gold Winger 9]

"They usually refer to those of us from the "EUA" (Estados Unidos da America also abbreviated EEUU) as "Norte Americanos" (North Americans)."

 

That's rather biased because Canadians and Mexicans also hail from North America.

[epalmer84 10]

>Mexico is actually "The United States of Mexico."

 

The official name of Mexico is "Estados Unidos Mexicanos", the official English translation is "United Mexican States".

 

Ed

[Gold Winger 9]

Hmmmm . . . so to the Mex'cans, we're the United American States?

 

In any case, my point still stands.

[Liz 101]

No, I think it translates directly to "United States of America." You could probably also translate it to, "United States belonging to America" but that would be weird. ;-) "De America" (Spanish) means "of America," while "Mexicanos" is an adjective meaning "Mexican" -- so when it's translated into English, it's moved to the standard English location of adjectives (before the noun it modifies).

 

Disclaimer: I could be misapplying this since I don't speak Portuguese and I know virtually nothing about Brazil, except that their official language is Portuguese, which I do not speak; not Spanish, which I barely speak.

 

For what it's worth, in my limited experience in limited parts of Mexico, I've usually heard the USA referred to as "Estados Unidos de Norte America." (United States of North America). It's interesting that different groups will vary in what they call things.

 

I don't know what Latin Americans call Canada, or how they differentiate U.S. Americans from Canadian Americans, or whether anybody in Latin America ever really thinks too much about the fact that Mexico is a North American country, too... or whether they're more identified with Central/South America because of their common language and somewhat more common history (when contrasted to U.S. and Canadian history).

 

-Liz

(Don't mind me, I'm just being a picky language freak!) =)

[Hal_Crawford 15]

In Portuguese and Spanish: Estados (States) Unidos (United) da America (of America). It is similar in French. GW picked up on the irony about Canadians and Mexicans. When Brazilians are talking about them they call them Canadians (I forget the Portuguese word, Canadianos?) and Mexicanos. They might refer to the three countries together as North Americans but they usually just mean us. To be fair, most Norte Americanos think that 187 million Brasileiros speak Spanish. To give an example of the difference, if you order a glass of beer in Spanish it is almost right in Portuguese except that the Spanish word for "glass" (vaso) means "chamber pot'.

 

I don't know what Mexicans call us... at least not the polite word.

[Gold Winger 9]

"I don't know what Mexicans call us... at least not the polite word."

 

Land of Free Health Care for Undocumented Workers?