Those Meddlesome Committee Members

[qwazse]

Beaver had managed to convict GClose about getting too involved in addressing a boy's advancement issues. Issues that seem to be reveal subtle character flaws in an otherwise fine young man. Beaver's contended that much of that dialog should have been referred to the SM.

 

Now a few months ago I might have nodded my head in agreement, but at the last Eagle CoH that I attended, 5 mentor pins were handed out. The boy had a reason for each. One went to an MC. His reason: "There'd be times that I felt that I could ignore my mom, but Mr. ___ I was scared of him. When he told me something, I listened!"

 

Why he didn't fear us SM's and ASM's, I haven't a clue! But there it is. That MC's authority helped us do our job.

 

So, yeah, y'all need to be letting us SM/ASMs/Advisors have our say with the boys. And if you're getting dragged into the mix, let us know what's happening. But sometimes a boy connects with an adult for reasons more significant than the patch on their sleeve. So figure out if the boy is using you as a go-around, or as a sounding board. If it's the former, set the boy straight. But, if it's the latter, carry-on. We need all the help we can get.

[Twocubdad]

My best ASM is registered as the troop's committee chairman. I hope I'm his most reliable committee member. It's all about teamwork and doing what's best for the program and boys.

 

That said, we do have roles, but I get the fun ones

[Venividi]

We all have different skills and abilities. GKlose has spent many hours on this. In an ideal world, the SM has all the abilities, and all the time in the world to deal with every situation involving each boy in the troop. And still have time for his own family.

 

Its not an ideal world. As long as we were of common mind and in general agreement on the goals, objectives, and methods, as a SM I would welcome the help of GKlose in this manner. It is something to discuss in advance, or as soon after an ad hoc discussion with a scout on such a topic would occur.

 

Teamwork

[GKlose]

Hey! Can I have a say in this? :-)

 

I am taking da Beav's advice to heart in this, and I have re-read his two most pertinent posts several times. And I'll read them again. And it will certainly help me going forward, especially for cases of getting too deeply involved.

 

But Beav's posts have also put me in a difficult position (granted, self-inflicted). For the present circumstance, I can drop out of the (now scheduled) meeting with Scout and the Dad, and disappoint the family. I can't judge their true emotion via the email that has gone back and forth, but let's all assume there are various emotions involved like angry and confused. Will dropping out make things worse (for them)?

 

Or I can still meet with them, and disappoint da Beav. That's tricky too. He's a long time forum member, has excellent advice, and is gracious in offering his counsel in this matter. I have welcomed all input in the matter at hand, and for those who have followed, recommendations have been all over the map. I expected that :-).

 

Beavah is also concerned about two things in particular -- that the Scout and his dad do not get a mixed message from the SM and the CC, and that the SM and CC are on the same page.

 

Chris/SM lives very close to me, and we see each other often. We have bonded over rebuilding a troop together, and there has never been any kind of a dispute between the two of us. We trade email often, although I think he'd prefer to see a little less from me :-). My method, though, is to send things when they pop into my head (or else I will forget them). On my end, it doesn't bother me a bit that he only responds to the occasional note -- at some future point, we'll resolve the matter.

 

In this matter, I completely understand Chris' point of view, and I support it. I am not giving the "good cop - bad cop" (or, what I call the "mommy/daddy") business to the Scout in question. I don't think I am fostering a mixed message. Perhaps I am, just by communicating with the Scout directly, and possibly meeting with him.

 

In no way am I attempting to usurp the SM role, or try and use the CC role as a dominant role.

 

It's not that I feel I must defend myself, but let me add just a little bit of explanation. I can't recall whether Chris was MC or AS, when he was Advancement Chair. But in that role, he provided a valuable service by tightening up standards on rank advancement. He moved on to SM, so a new Advancement Chair needed to be found. At the same time, the prior CC was stepping back from his role, and as an AS/MC Membership Chair (on paper, my registration changed back and forth a couple of times -- I'm trained in all roles), I started to assist with more of the administrative duties. Just after the CC's son completed his Eagle board, he announced that he'd be stepping down and that he was turning over the CC role to me. Once I became CC, and without an Advancement Chair, I started to run our troop BoRs. I do need to find an Advancement Chair, but my first priority was to find a Treasurer (done, last month).

 

So that outlines our two roles -- SM and CC/interim Advancement Chair. We don't have an Eagle Advisor, but Chris has more or less fulfilled that role, since he is an Eagle himself.

 

Before the weekend is out, I expect Chris and I will be talking, I'll figure out whether or not he thinks I've been stepping on his toes, and I'll apologize if necessary.

[GKlose]

End-around, or sounding board?

 

My gut feel is that the Scout and dad might be thinking the first, and I have no intention of being anything but the second.

 

PS: so am I a meddlesome committee member? You bet -- I am heavily invested in what has been a 3-year process to rebuild a troop.

 

We've kind of broken down the workload as program (SM) and administrative (CC). I'm thriving in that role. I can't always make monthly outings, but Chris loves the outdoors. I recall him only missing one out of the last 30 outings or so, and that was because of an out of town funeral popped up.

 

Chris hates paperwork, and a search of my posts would reveal a past complaint about my biggest time-waster (collecting applications). After that is solved, my biggest time waster will be collecting medical forms for summer camp! Then I'll move on to the next biggest one.

 

So Advancement -- program or administrative? I'm afraid a little of both. Is there a line cast in jello in there where the program aspect and the administrative aspect of an Eagle application kind of wiggle together. Have I blasted through the jello? :-) If I did, it wasn't because of a power grab. Closer to a misunderstanding, because this is my first Eagle candidate as a CC, and it hasn't been an easy one. I've been a bystander to the happenings for over a year.

 

Thanks all -- I really do enjoy reading the differing opinions.

 

Guy

[Beavah]

Yep, I agree with qwazse in that da natural thing for boys is to find and hook up with adults who for whatever mysterious reason they seem to have affinity for at the time. I think there's a deep part of every boy that knows what he needs, and goes out and finds an adult who can fill that need. That's goin' to be different folks for different boys, and we should allow for and encourage that.

 

That's for mentoring, though, eh? That's not for business. When we're talkin' a sit-down high-stakes meeting with the boy and dad, that's business. When it's business, da roles need to be clear and people need to be on the same page, because the slightest bit of difference will do the oddest things to what the lad and his dad actually "hear" in their minds.

 

In that context, I was readin' somethin' different into da postings in da other thread. Cbowe was pretty firm about how he felt and da direction he wanted to lead the troop with respect to this boy. GKlose was writin' multiple posts (not just to us, but in his communication with the boy and dad) that were still exploring options. That's not a good recipe. If da SM is pretty firm on where he's goin' but da CC is havin' more relaxed and "open to options" communications (even in tone) with the family (and without the SM), that's almost guaranteed to become a real problem. Only da two of them can actually say whether my guess is correct, but that sure looked like da tone of things, eh? In particular da CC meetin' with the lad and his dad without the SM present. GKlose seems to confirm that tone in some of what he writes in this thread. Tone matters a lot in this stuff.

 

That's not uncommon, eh? Scouters of all stripes are naturally wired to try to help boys, to see the best in boys, to enjoy workin' with boys. That's why in so many cases (as several folks commented in da other thread) they keep bendin' over backwards and sideways and passin' 'em along in da "hope" that the lad will change. Then they get near the end and discover that not only has the lad not changed, but the act of givin' him the repeated benefit-of-the-doubt and benefit-of-hope has in fact reinforced bad habits and behaviors in the lad.

 

So when it's general mentoring, by all means keep it open. But when it's serious business, stick to da established roles to prevent confusion and misinterpretation by anybody. Same as for an outin', eh? When it's great weather and relaxed, keep it open. When it's bad weather and you're dealin' with an injury, da roles and command structure tighten up.

 

Of course, I could be all wet (heck, us beavahs usually are, eh? ). GKlose needn't ever worry about disappointin' da Beavah. Any fellow who gives of his time and treasure to other people's kids in the Scoutin' program, and is as thoughtful as he is deserves nuthin' but respect for any choice he makes.

 

Beavah

 

 

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[cbowe]

Guy was in the troop a year or so before me. Shortly after I joined I was asked to take over as AC. I said sure, what do I need to do? I tossed lots of wrenches in the works because I expected scouts to actually do the POR, not just hold a title. I asked the committee and got a "ok, thats fine, whatever" until it was actually enfored. Then there were some fire works. I asked if we were a cub scout pack and taking the summer off again or a boy scout troop that would meet and do things over the summer. I am definitely subtle. Guy definitly had ideas about the troop and cautiously queried me on my opinions. I think after the first year it was kind of assumed by everyone but me, I would take over as SM. In fact I asked Guy if he would rather have the job, he "politely" declined. He was interested in the CC role and our CC stepped down shortly after the SM.

 

I tend to be pretty direct. I don't get angry very often, I do my best to be fair but firm. I try to set the boundaries and expectations and let the scouts run the program. I have also found that most parents don't like direct or compromises that the scout makes when after a chat he realizes he really did not live up to the requirements. They don't like it when it comes to why little Johnny was removed as a PL for never showing up to lead his patrol, or is not being advanced to the next rank as quickly and Mr. & Mrs. Johnny think he should. Guy is way better at talking the distraught parents off the ledge. I am more likely to offer a hipcheck to speed up the process. I did mention I am direct, no?

 

Since early 2010 we went from 2 outing a year to 14 or 15 outings a year. The outings went from plop camping in the exact same spot and do nothing but hang around, to you name it. Since then we have gone snowshoeing in the Whites in -17 degree weather, 50 mile canoe trip, mountian biking, 4000 footer patrol hikes, orienteering, pioneering etc. Every outing has a theme now that the scout choose. It had been 100% adult lead and is now 90% scout lead. They pick the outing, plan locations, make reservations, rent needed equipment, plan menus, buy the food and request a certain numbers of adults to drive. Room to improve, absolutely, we still 10% to go.

 

Guy and I make, in my opinion, an excellent team. I don't think we would have succeeded as quickly as we did if we had worked any differently. We have a fairly small committee now (8ish people) but we are all on the same page. Could there be problems and conflict if we were not on the same page? Sure, but we do talk all the time and we do have a pretty aligned view of where we want to go.

 

As Guy mentioned I love the activties part of the job. In 3 and a half years I have missed one outing, when my father-in-law passed away. In the past that outing would have been cancelled. This time I talked to my SPL and confirmed we had a solid plan. He arranged for an adult to cover my absense. My belief is no one is indispensible, not even the SM, expecially not the SM.

 

Guy is a paperwork person (I do paperwork all day long for a living, heck if I am going to do it as SM ) He does an excellent job and is CONSTANTLY, like non stop, day and night, night and day sending me idea. I have a pat answer for him "sound good to me, lets do it." That will teach him to keep making suggestions!

 

The scouts who actually show up (which is most of them now) know better than try to play both ends against the middle (same goes with playing one troop against another as we SMs in town all talk do each other and compare notes on claims that are made). The scouts know what is expected, they know what will happen if they do not do thier part, in a POR, for being active, in not being a positive part of the troop and the best part about it is that they do not whine or complain. They are to busy having fun doing what they decided to be doing. The scouts also know if I make a mistake I will not hesitate to appologies and do what I can to correct the error. They know I will bend over backward to work around all the stuff going on in thier lives to help them succeed. All I really expect from them is honestly and thier best efforts.

 

Guy and I both care about scouting and this troop. We have both put alot of time and engergy in bringing this troop back from the grave. So is he meddlesome? Sure, though, if he stops being meddlesome I will kill him.

 

Chris

 

P.S I do like to see scouts advance, that said, I am not into advancement. As I tell my scouts... "show up and have fun and you will advance without having to think about it." If fact, I often have to remind them that they might want to check their books because they are ready for a BOR and are not aware of it.

 

 

PPS This is why I never post, can never seem write a short one of these.

 

PPPS Guy, don't let the praise go to your head, you are not getting a raise.

[Beavah]

Aw, cbowe, give da fellow a raise. Sounds like he deserves it. 50% up on his current salary.

 

Sound like a good team. Boys need direct, eh? They don't get subtle. Parents need some handholdin' and procedural reassurance.

 

Keep havin' fun out there, and settin' da right tone.

 

B

 

[GKlose]

Aw, shucks -- now I'm blushing.

 

But about the salary part, now that we have a treasurer, I can't skim my "salary" off the top any more. :-)

 

Guy