POR time - contiguous or bits?

[SMT224 10]

Quick question here...

 

Is the time in a POR for advancement to be done in a contiguous stretch of time (4 months for Star, 6 months for Life & Eagle), or can it be broken up into bits -- a month here, a few weeks there, over a period of several years, until the full 4 or 6 months is achieved?

 

Thanks!

[rdclements 10]

It can be done in separate pieces, even in separate roles, so long as the total amount of time is correct and the roles are those listed for each rank. Here's the specific section from the Guide to Advancement:

 

4.2.3.4.2 Meeting the Time Test May Involve Any Number of Positions. The requirement calls for a period of months. Any number of positions may be held as long as total service time equals at least the number of months required. Holding simultaneous positions does not shorten the

required number of months. Positions need not flow from one to the other; there may be gaps between them. This applies to all qualified members including Lone Scouts.

[Basementdweller 608]

Got kinda of a silly question.....Not questioning what is written.

 

 

But are POR that tough to keep for 4 months???? It is 4 outings and 16 meetings???

 

Do the scouts reside long enough at those ranks to need multiple years of POR???

 

Just asking(This message has been edited by Basementdweller)

[moosetracker 132]

The troop has to have a strong procedure to remove them from a POR if they are not fulfilling it.. In some ways I disagree with the policy, if it is to piece together POR time for boys that are being removed from POR for lack of committing to it.. 2 months before being kicked out of first POR due to non-performance.. 1 1/2 months before getting kicked out of second POR due to non-performance.. 1/2 a month at some othe POR they are failing to do also, wha-la.. the boy has time in for 4 months of a POR..

 

On the otherhand, I think it fine, if say the boy gets his first POR not on the first day he made the rank, but later on.. He gets the POR, does 4 months in the POR and then moves up to the next rank.. If the POR is for 6 months, then I see no reason why the next 2 months can not count for his new Rank.. Then he needs to get a different POR to get the other 2 months of service in..

 

Or say the boy starts his POR in troop x.. before the time is up he moves and joins troop y.. Then the time in his POR from troop x should count.. Or if the scouts starts a POR, then gets seriously sick and cannot finish it.. Returns to the troop at a later date, gets a new POR..

 

There are reasons the piecing together I would have no issue with.. But, I disagree with piecing together a stop-watch account of a POR when the scout did nothing in the position.

[qwazse 4352]

Most of our boys spend more than the allotted time working on ranks. During that time they hold one or more PORs, more or less continuously. So, no, for the average boy in a youth-led unit that has lots of work to do to keep things fun and safe, demonstrating leadership is a matter of course.

 

On rare occasion a POR can be a bad fit (e.g., the kid with lousy reading/organizational skills is a wreck as librarian), and it takes a boy trying a different position for things to come together. Sometimes it takes a while to get the confidence to take on that next job. We don't rush to create positions for boys, unless they ask us to do so. Sometimes life happens and an otherwise active boy can't participate for a couple months, then he comes back and is active again. Usually, it's the boy's decision, and most of the time he feels like he "never really did anything" in position X, so he wants to prove himself in position Y.

 

I'd like to think we've seen it all, but I'm sure there's a kid out there that will have us scratching our heads before his star or life SMC!

[Beavah 205]

Yah, what moosetracker said. A lad can split duties over time if he's really doin' 'em, but don't get caught up in somethin' meaningless and silly like giving credit for failing to be responsible in various positions for one month at a time.

 

Qwazse has what I think is the real issue. Most of our boys spend more than the allotted time working on ranks. That's generally the way of things in any troop worth its salt. What I generally tell folks is that if you are quibbling about what "counts" as number of nights camping or how long a lad is in a POR or any of those other "numbers" then yeh are failing. If you are running an active, real Scouting program then the lads won't be able to develop the skills and attitudes that are required for advancement without havin' a lot more than the minimum number of days / months. Most active troops don't even bother to count such things, because all the boys goin' for rank are well past them.

 

Beavah

 

[CalicoPenn 729]

Yes, it can be done in bits, over a long period of time. Does that happen often? No. But there might be instances where it does. Scout may have been elected PL, serves 4 months, earns Star, then serves another 2 months as Star but isn't re-elected as PL and isn't selected by the SPL for another post until 2 months later - the two months of PL time counts but there might be a gap in PORs.

 

Or, Scout serves 3 months as QM for Life rank, then gives up the POR because he's playing High School Football and doesn't want to leave the Troop without a functioning QM. After 3 1/2 months of football, he comes back and is appointed QM again.

 

And yes, that means you could end up with something ridiculous - a Star serving one month as QM, then 2 months with no POR then 1 month as Librarian, then 1 month with no POR, etc. etc. The BSA could write a rule against something like that but that just leads to adults complicating things with interpretations that aren't meant by the BSA. Kind of like interpreting "A Scoutmaster signs a Blue Card" to add "unless the Scoutmaster says he can't to the rule "A Scout can work on ANY merit badge at ANY time and for as long as it takes him".

[fred8033 1599]

Beavah wrote: - "Qwazse has what I think is the real issue. Most of our boys spend more than the allotted time working on ranks. That's generally the way of things in any troop worth its salt. "

 

I think that hits it on the head. We spend much time arguing the boundary cases. In reality, most Eagle scouts have had plenty of PORs, nights of camping, activities, etc. When I think about our last five years of Eagle scouts, there wasn't one that had less than a hundred nights of camping and an extra year of PORs. We argue over edge cases when things happen

[Beavah 205]

Kind of like interpreting "A Scoutmaster signs a Blue Card" to add "unless the Scoutmaster says he can't to the rule "A Scout can work on ANY merit badge at ANY time and for as long as it takes him".

 

Yeh mean the way the Guide to Advancement does exactly that, when it says:

 

Though a few merit badges may have certain restrictions; short of them, any registered Scout may work on any of them at any time, as long as he has the approval of his unit leader. This is indicated by his or her signature on the Application for Merit Badge, No. 34124, commonly called the blue card.

 

Just wonderin'.

 

Beavah

 

[SMT224 10]

Thanks for your replies. I appreciate the information.

 

The situation at hand is an older Scout that is a POR, 2 mb, & a project away from Eagle. He was a very active Scout up until about a year and a half ago, but now is very involved in sports and has been at Troop meetings and camping trips about 3 months out of 12 -- when he doesn't have a game or practice. He has been "Instructor" and "Guide" over the years, but had only put a month of actual active work into each. If those times count, then it's a matter of getting him to focus on POR activities when he is at a meeting or outing for another 4 months. We were afraid he'd have to start all over again, something that just seemed impossible, given how little we see him!

 

 

[Basementdweller 608]

Ok calico.....I understand that.......

[CalicoPenn 729]

Well Beavah, I'd go over what the Boy Scouts means by Scoutmaster Approval - that short of a Scout not being capable of earning a particular badge at that point in his life (which should be a conversation that goes something like "Gee, 10 1/2 year old Billy who wants to take Climbing Merit Badge but has never climbed before in your life, that merit badge requires a bit of upper body strength that you just don't have yet and I'd hate to see you start it then quit it because you aren't able to do the work yet - maybe you should do it in a couple of years and build up to it") means the Scoutmaster affirms that the lad is registered and has spoken with the Scoutmaster about working on the merit badge, but you'll just not agree with what the BSA says it means and shoot the messenger.

 

Of course, that's precisely WHY the BSA not only says that a Scout must have approval from his Scoutmaster but then goes on to explain what they mean by approval, so we don't have to nitpick about what they heck it means. Either follow the policy, or don't and admit you aren't following policy instead of justifying why you aren't following it.

[fred8033 1599]

Not to take this thread down a different track but ....

 

Merit badge approval is another place that BSA has tried to write clearly, but it takes a bit to understand when to say yes and no. But I did find last night another article that addressed it. Written by BSA national Advancement Team. Published to council and district advancement chairs.

 

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/advancement_news/512-075_March.pdf

 

"Above all, the most important aspect of requiring the Scoutmaster to sign the blue card is that it affords another opportunity for a quality visit between an adult and a Scout. Remember that the starting point for this interview should be for the Scoutmaster to say yes to the Scouts merit badge request (a no might only come if there are obvious reasons for denial). But more important than the yes is the opportunity for a unit leader and Scout to share in a quality adult-youth moment."

 

From what I take, the approval is more for the conversation and the conferencing and less about blessing the blue card.