AC

[tramthum@gmail.com 10]

we recently had 3 families leave our troop. prior to leaving they brought in their scout books so we could marry up their advancment records. rank for T, 2nd and 1st on two of the boys raised some issues. a few weeks before leaving these three families went on a family camping trip and signed off on several rank advancement requirements for the boys (dads were ASM) i told them these requirements would not be added to their official record because they had not be completed at a scout meeting, event etc. i also reminded them that we had Troop Guides to sign off on these requiements. the situation got tense, our SM told me to go ahead and accept initials and dates. i did but have not added them to TM yet. i could not find anything to support my position except those that say specifically 'at a campout' etc but i cant imagine it is ok to go on a family campout and start knocking out rank requirements. any thoughts?

[Callooh! Callay!1428010939 28]

Did they follow YPT and Guide to Safe Scouting Guidelines?

Did they do the tour planning worksheet/tour permit?

 

If they did, the OP question is irrelevant because it was a Boy Scout campout, even if it was also a family campout.

 

If they didn't, then the OP question is an interesting one.

 

[tramthum@gmail.com 10]

i cant say about YPT but i know there were a total of 6 adults at the campout. no they did not fill out paperwork for permit becuase it was not an official scout event. that is the rub, they are saying it does not have to be an official scout event to work on rank advancement, i say it does but cant find anything to back me up. according to one of the dads the district advancement chair agrees with him. i have not heard back from him yet so cant say what his answer is.

[Eagle92 110]

Sounds like you got some folks who are still in CS Mode.

 

The SM is the gatekeeper for advancement, and since he said accept you need to accept it. Luckily they are no longer with your unit and hopefully you will not have to deal with them again.

 

Advancement can be handled in a variety of ways at the local level, as long as they follow G2A. While there is no national ban on parents signing off kids in Boy Scouts, many units do that.

 

Personally I like the PLs signing off on T-2-2 advancement.

[tramthum@gmail.com 10]

The situation was getting tense so while i did not agree with it i know why we made it. i just kinda feel like we were strong armed. you can bet our policy will be crystal clear from this point forward. this is the first time we have had an issue of this type, i hope it is our last. i just have a hard time believing it is permissible for rank advancement to be signed off on in this manner, to think of all the family non scout events we have attended and all this time i could have had my SPL son signing off on his younger brothers.

[ScoutNut 147]

>>"they are saying it does not have to be an official scout event to work on rank advancement, i say it does but cant find anything to back me up."

[ScoutNut 147]

>>"you can bet our policy will be crystal clear from this point forward."

[tramthum@gmail.com 10]

what i really hate about this whole situation is to me it smacks of common sense. to bring a quality program to the boys integerity has to play a part and i am not seeing it in this situation. did i also mention that this 'family camping event' happened on the same weekend of our annual lock in.

[tramthum@gmail.com 10]

@scoutnut

 

no problem here with the no adding or subtracting of the requirements, just more talk on integerity. the no adding or subtracting is actually what might have started this situation. i had to stand firm on MB requirements with the counselor spouse of one of these ASM's when they decided they could not only re-write requirements but requiring scouts to do specific requirements when clearly they had choices to choose from, well this has been an interesting experience and i have most certaintly learned from the experience, i wish them well at their next unit and hope they to have learned.

[shortridge 184]

I assume from the title of this thread that you are the advancement chairperson for the troop. No offense intended, but that means you are a paper-pusher, not some sort of guardian of advancement standards.

 

Having the title of "advancement chair" does not set you up in a position of power over Scouts' advancement. That is part of the unit program, and as such is the Scoutmaster's and SPL's purview. Your job is to process the paperwork and maintain records, ideally working with the troop scribe and patrol leaders.

 

That's it.

[tramthum@gmail.com 10]

Shortidge you are correct i am the Adv Ch and your answer does not offend me but i am far from being a 'paper pusher'. i am part of a team and i take my current job as the Adv Ch seriously. I believe i have a responsibility to each and every scout and parent that walks thru our unit. that responsibility includes helping our troop run a good, fair, honest program with integrity and pride. I don't believe I have ever thought of myself as having power over the scout but i do believe i and every adult in our program should be the guardian of not only advancement standards but of standards in general. if we do not expect these high standards from our boys then who will.

[Beavah 205]

Yah, hmmm....

 

Welcome to the forums. It's nice to "meet" yeh.

 

I'll begin by saying that in Boy Scouting, having parents "sign off" on any of their own boy's advancement is always a bad idea. Only in small troops in da remote tribal villages of da U.S. should it ever be considered. That's not just because the parents will be too easy, eh? Sometimes they're too hard. It's because yeh want boys to have to go prove themselves to their peers and to the community, and no matter how good the parents are when a parent signs off there will always be a perception that it was hinky. The boy will not have proved himself to his peers and the community.

 

So tramthum, I think 95% of da scouters out here will agree that what you describe is not best practice. I think it's just fine if yeh have a sit-down with the CC and the SM and yourself and express your concerns. That sort of thing needs to be voiced, eh? Folks sometimes need the push-back to help 'em suit up for the game and resist the parents who are pushing.

 

All that having been said, once yeh have that private conversation your job is to salute and support the SM. There can be some good reasons for what went on, eh? There are always exceptions to the rule, and this ain't even a "rule". If a lad is within a few requirements of finishing something off before goin' off to a new troop, helping the boy push through is a good thing. It would have been better if they had done the family campout and then come back on Sunday afternoon to demonstrate their skills to someone else, but yeh don't know that they weren't completely above board and kosher about it, and the SM may have given his permission in advance.

 

The reasons in the end don't even matter, eh? Just like a scout sometimes obeys his Patrol Leader just because the fellow is his Patrol Leader and it would hurt the group if he didn't, you as Advancement Chair have to follow the lead of the Scoutmaster because otherwise you will hurt the troop far more than if yeh didn't. It's a judgment call, eh? And the fellow who sits in the judges chair gets to make the call. Not all calls are good calls, nor does everyone agree on which is which. But if yeh agree to serve in a support position, after yeh voice your private concern yeh need to offer your support, or step down.

 

Beavah

 

[Eagle92 110]

Tram,

 

Have you gone through any committee training yet? I ask because as an AC, you are a "paperpusher." Advancement standards is program related, and that is the realm of the SM and his assistants.

 

I'm doing this from memory, so please bear with me. Your job is to arrange BORs, record advancement and awards earned, submit records to council, purchase awards, and make sure that council records are correct. OH and provide FEEDBACK (emphasis not shouting) to the SMs about programing concerns that arise from BORs. If you have concerns, maybe a cup of coffee with the SM is needed. BUT he is ultimately responsible for advancement in the unit. The SM is the one that says who can and cannot sign off on requirements. The SM is the one who assigns MBCs, etc, etc.

 

Now part of the BOR process is training committee members to sit on them. And that is an important one. As someone who sat on a BOR with no training or experience except going through them, it can be intimidating.

[Oak Tree 15]

The official "rule", if you want to call it that, is that the Scoutmaster gets to decide who can sign off on requirements. In many troops this does not include parents, but that is a decision of the Scoutmaster. If you want to head off situations like this, it would be good for the Scoutmaster to make it clear who is authorized to sign off what.

 

But there is no blanket prohibition on brothers or parents or committee members or anyone else.

 

I'd just accept these, move on, and let it go. Who really cares? They've left the unit.

[packsaddle 753]

I'll go along with Scoutnut on this. If they did the minimum, they DID the minimum and met the requirements. They're moving on and so should you.