fred8033 1593 Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Basement ... It's all a matter of #1 project needs and #2 proportion. IMHO, food during the event is a "supply" (volunteer incentive or health and safety protection) to get the job done. Food after the event is a thank you. The eagle project workbook specifically calls out both food as a supply and calls out saying thank you in the project report. IMHO, volunteer labor is also a donation just like money, wood, shovels, etc. Proportion... if the project is to restore a stream filled by sediment or to remove a forest of buckthorn, you might need a large crew for multiple days. You might spend hundreds and hundreds or more and 90% of your budget on food for the crew. If volunteer construction ... a $1000 project is probably okay spending $20 to $100 feeding the crew and also probably okay spending $10 to $20 on tokens to say thank you to the volunteers and/or donors. Maybe more. A $100,000 volunteer construction is probably okay spending hundreds, a thousand or more on food and spending $300 to $1000 saying thank you. A million dollar specific donation probably includes a catered thank you event. Heck, many projects pay for bronze plaques naming the donors bolted to large rocks. That's out of donation money. It's all a matter of the project needs and proportionality. ... The problem I see is "expecting" parents to pay. Yes, I donated pizzas to my son's eagle project. Six Little Ceasar $5 pizzas. Walmart generic two liter $0.99 sodas. Paper towels and Red Solo cups (... go Toby Keith ...) But it was in his plan, recorded as a donation and I received a thank you letter (tax deduction record) from the beneficiary. But you can't REQUIRE a charitable contribution. That's an oxymoron. And the scout should plan and budget the food. It's part of the project. ... twocubdad wrote: "Another new item in the new workbook is an Eagle Project Fundraising Application which requires approval of the unit, beneficiary and council. This unit will not approve a fundraising app without a detailed budget." I know this is a discussion that's already happened and will keep happening for years to come. But here it is. The eagle workbook proposal includes a "Preliminary Cost Estimate". The fundraising app includes a description of how much and how it will be used. Most importantly the workbook includes page 21 that teaches the scout and his parents what is required. Now most parents and scouts won't realize your requiring more or will decide it's not worth picking a fight. But, refusing to approve a fundraising app without a detailed budget is adding requirements. I understand the need and depending on the budget might also work to see the details, but it's still adding requirements. ... And yes... adult leaders help scouts fight the battles with other adult leaders. That's why we are there. (This message has been edited by fred8033) Link to post Share on other sites
John-in-KC 311 Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Just as a quick note, The 2011 Guide to Advancement is online at the National website: http://scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf I just went through the section about ELSPs. Not one word about food. I think the consensus here is spot on: Food on major workday is a supply of the project, and to be budgeted for. Link to post Share on other sites
Eagle732 27 Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Well the DAC went to a Council Advancement meeting two days prior to the training he had for unit leaders. He was told by Council fundraising moneys may not be used for food. Since raisin doesn't list where he's from I have no idea if we're from the same District or Council. I don't know if it's right or wrong but I'm thinking if they say don't and a boy does buy food it will at the minimum create problems and delays in the project. Link to post Share on other sites
Twocubdad 665 Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Fred, no. If wanting to see how much is being raised and how it will be spent before putting my signature on a fundraising application is adding to the requirements, then so be it. I'll help you write your letter of appeal. If the council wants to approve the application without my signature, they are welcome to do so. If you ask me to approve something I need to know what I'm approving. The new Eagle procedures are neither blank check nor suicide pact. I'm not required to sign or approve anything I don't understand or agree to. if the only information I can base my approval upon is that previously submitted in the proposal, then make fundraising approval automatically part of the proposal process. That it is part of the final plan phase tells me that more planning and development is needed that what was available in the proposal. In the same way, Eagle projects are now officially unit activities requiring two-deep leadership and tour permits, if applicable. If I'm responsible for an activity, I'm going to know the details in advance. Just because a Scout and his beneficiary have agreed to clear stumps with dynamite doesn't mean I've got to go along with it. The faustian deal of the new procedures is a Scout can play games with the planning, development and approval of the project if he likes, but he runs the risk that his actions will not be approved by his unit leaders and board of review on the back end. Far better to be forthcoming with your leaders, give them detail they need, get them on board and have their support on the backside. I went to the council training on this stuff recently. It's amazing how wrapped around the axle people are over this stuff. Common sense. Common sense. Link to post Share on other sites
momof2cubs 10 Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 A couple of years ago, my nephew did his Eagle project and he sent his fund raising letter to us. I just dug it out and sure enough it included a budget. The budget had a line on it: "Food, drinks, and 1st aid materials: $250" So he accounted for it and included it in his budget. He got his Eagle badge, so I assume all this was approved. I don't see anything at all wrong with including it in the budget and feeding your volunteers some lunch. Link to post Share on other sites
Eagle732 27 Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Knowing how much will be raised and how it will be spent on the front end might help prevent problems on the back end. Seems this new process is ripe for a Scout to stray off the reservation (either by accident or on purpose) and get banged at the EBOR. Of course how many boards are really going to turn down a candidate if he's not up to par? About buying food from money that was raised. Page 4, "Restrictions" states "Fundraising is permitted only for securing materials and facilitating a project and it may need to be approved by your council". Page 9, Preliminary Costs Estimate does note under "other" items such as food, water, gas, tool rental etc. We were told food can be purchased by parents or others at their expense or donated. Link to post Share on other sites
raisinemright 13 Posted January 21, 2012 Author Share Posted January 21, 2012 Eagle, Thus the question. Their policy is contradictory to the guide in several areas. That goes against adding or subtracting regulations and is incorrect. If other councils recommend and allow it, there is no reason this one should not. Link to post Share on other sites
Eagle732 27 Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I had five scouts from my unit there with me during this "Life to Eagle" seminar where they were told they could not use fundraised money for feeding crews, none of them questioned it. I'm thinking we are not fighting council over this. Link to post Share on other sites
raisinemright 13 Posted January 22, 2012 Author Share Posted January 22, 2012 Sorry my friend but to me, it's a big deal. To the scout families I know in several states, it's a significant expense. Link to post Share on other sites
SeattlePioneer 144 Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I want to lend my support to the idea of food.... " A Scout is Hungry" and so are most adults! Link to post Share on other sites
Basementdweller 608 Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 So explain to me why feeding the work crew has to be a significant expense????????? Not a lot of money? go to an aldi's or gordon foods and get you the big thing of 100 hot dogs for $10.....the food service bag of chips and all is good. you could feed your work crew for less than $40 for sure. Don't like dogs, they have burgers cheap too. Or you could do little caesars pizza's at $5 each........ Or you could do a volunteer potluck everyone bring something. You guys are attacking this issue too linearly. Think outside the box for cryin out loud. Curious, how much have boys spent on food for their work crews?????? Link to post Share on other sites
raisinemright 13 Posted January 22, 2012 Author Share Posted January 22, 2012 Basement, at the heart, it is their project. The Scout. So he should be responsible for and have the right to finance it as he and his beneficiary desires the well being of his crew. On a hot, all day work project, it's only right that a lunch be provided. By the scout because it's his project, not mine. I think Lisabob had the best point. We cannot continue to make scouting the playground of the well off. I agree that this is not a major league issue, but I also believe that it is a Council adding to a requirement and that is major. Link to post Share on other sites
Twocubdad 665 Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Curious, how much have boys spent on food for their work crews?????? Interestingly enough, my son had a work day for his Eagle Project today. He had about 12 boys who worked three hours for him on a cold wet day. Total cost of food: $4.58 for a tub of cocoa. This is out of a budget of about $500 -- the kid sold discount cards to raise over $300 for the project and is kicking in another $100 out of his own pocket (which mom and dad are matching). I don't know what makes you think these guys are living large off money donated to their Eagle Project. By and large, they are getting by on the cheap. My guys Scouts know minute-by-minute the cheapest pizzas in town. And when did food brought to a pot luck become free? That's just cost shifting. I've worked with probably 25 Eagle Scouts over the past eight years on their projects. Off-hand, I can't think of a single one who has solicited donations for their project. They are almost all funded by the Scout earning the money or his family doing so. These young men are responsible for thousands of hours and dollars being donated to the community. The idea that spending a few bucks on cocoa or pizza is somehow poor stewardship of the funds donated to them is as laughable as it is offensive. Have you guys never been involved in fundraising? Never been to a campaign kick-off breakfast? Never had your DE or SE pick up the tab for lunch when you arranged for him to meet your and a potential large donor? None of the council committees you serve on ever have lunch meetings? Have never been offer drinks or snacks at Roundtable or a training function? Where did that money come from? You guys really think there is an issue of budgeting a small percentage of a project's budget to take care of and show appreciation for the Scouts who are doing the work? I just don't get it.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad) Link to post Share on other sites
SeattlePioneer 144 Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Feeding volunteers is a nice gesture and a thoughtful one. Link to post Share on other sites
Eagle732 27 Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Another point is that any money raised is on the behalf of the beneficiary (page 17). It seems that if the beneficiary approves the use of those funds for feeding crews than that should not be a problem with DIstrict. However DIstrict approves the project and our district apparently does not approve of using funds to feed crews. So I either fight the fight with DIstrict or go along to get along. If one of my guys wants to feed his crew with money he raised then I'll get into it with District. I personally believe it should be allowed if it's disclosed in advance, approved by the beneficiary, and is done in a thrifty way. Link to post Share on other sites
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