Eagle Project Workbook Headaches

[Mad Max 10]

Anyone having problems with the new workbook and how it won't expand when the boy needs more room?

[fred8033 1593]

If the section is not working for him, put "SEE ATTACHMENT ******" and write it in a separate document that you attach.

 

He probably needs to do that anyway for diagrams and the final plan shopping list. The material, supply and tool lists are okay for the proposal section, but too short for the final plan.

 

I'm coaching a scout using it right now. It seems to be working really well. Most fields shrink the font nicely, but some such as the work process area had to be a separate document. It wasn't needed for the approvals. It was needed to avoid any "magical thinking" that it would just work or just happen.

 

I should mention that I love the new workbook. It's well structured and very well thought out. The proposal section and proposal approvals seem to really add consistency and control to getting a project started. Too many times it would take scouts months to get project approval.

 

My big fear is that scouts won't do a good job on the final plan since it's not required and not required to be shown to the EBOR. I'm glad it's not required, but any scout not addressing those final topics in the final plan is planning to fail.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

[Twocubdad 665]

I've had one project approved under the new format and have another in the signature collection phase. My understanding is the boxes don't expand because that's as much as they want you to write. Of course the font size will disappear into the grain of the paper, but I'd say you need to cut back on the explaination. It's now a proposal, not a plan.

 

The Scout whose project was approved was already well into the old-style plan when the new forms came out. He had already completed drawings, materials lists, budgets and schedules for his project. Since he had them, I suggested he add them as attachments to the new work book. My feedback from the review committee (our district AC and one spy) was that the committee (which had previously resigned en masse in protest of the new system) was actually rather satisfied with his proposal.

 

Since the details of the actual plan is now the responsibility of the unit, we're asking our Life scouts to develop their plans to at least this level. We want to see that the Scout has thought through the project to the degree that he understands what he is getting into and has a resaonable chance of success. Consequently, it seems reasonable to include that material with the proposal we're sending the council.

 

Of course, what we're eliminating is the 30 pages of boiler plate and baloney the council formerly required and just asking the Scouts to develop the stuff they really need to execute a plan.

[Mad Max 10]

I basically like the new Workbook format. I agree that it is well thought out and will save me countless hours of trying to explain spreadsheets to these boys and how they help a young project manager organize their planning. What I was hoping for was a Workbook that would expand for projects that needed more detail, particularly in the "Project Phases" section. Most boys can't think beyond 3 phases: 1-Start, 2-and then a miracle happens, 3-End. I just think the shrinking text is a lousy way to set the thing up. Oh well, there may be lots of attachments in our future.

So far, what I don't like is the new process. Submitting a "Proposal" to the District, is at best an insult to our District. I believe this is an over-the-top response to Districts that have gone overboard with their added requirements and minimun number of hours, etc. We never do that, nor do we kill projects at the District review. We send boys back to the drawing board for more work on their planning, and send them back with a list of things they failed to do the first time. The closest we ever come to adding requirements is when a project is clearly one of those "maintenance" tasks, we will try to salvage or save the project by getting the scout to add something to it to make it an "Eagle Project". We've already had boys (and sadly with obvious adult support)who have taken this new process and used it to scam the entire system. By submitting a very weak Proposal (but one that met all the requirements) they were able to get a District approval in spite of the fact that they clearly had no clue as to what they were getting into. They will then take the Proposal back to their Unit and put forth a substandard effort in putting the actual plan together. The project may turn out to be beautiful in the end, but the planning process will be second rate and the actual leadership questionable at best.

All this leads me to believe that it will then be the Eagle BOR's responsibility to assertain whether or not the boy met the requirements to become an Eagle Scout. I submit that most won't. As an EBOR Chairman, I do not want to be placed in the position to have to then kill the project because the follow-thru was lousy. I maintain that even though the boys sometimes show up for their EBOR thinking their going to be put through a meatgrinder, the EBOR is a celebration of their scouting career, etc., not an inquisition and possible rejection of their Eagle Project. I would rather set a high standard at the District Project Review meeting than officiate a disasterous Eagle Board of Review. I'd rather police these things early on, rather than late in the game. The new process worries me greatly.

[fred8033 1593]

the committee (which had previously resigned en masse in protest of the new system) There's been grumbling in our district too. I just keep my mouth shut as I really like the changes and was frustrated at some of the self-important stuff that was happening. I love the emphasis on service and that the planning supports the service. Workbook quote: "These elements must not overshadow the project itself, as long as the effort was well led, and resulted in otherwise worthy results acceptable to the beneficiary." Love that.

 

I also like that the new workbook makes the 2.5 page proposal a "proposal" and not a "plan". It is far more managable than the research paper our district required in the past. In fact, the candidate I'm working with invested about two hours in his proposal before approval. The only attachment were a few hand drawn diagrams. But they were very good diagrams.

 

I'll take that any day over the submissions that were sent back for update two or three times because of silly requests like ... didn't include a map to the hospital ... didn't list the size of the screws needed ... didn't supply a detailed plan for how volunteers would be recruited ... didin't list source of the shovels.

 

...

 

The big issue I see is that the district/EBOR never "officially" gets to see the final plan unless the eagle candidate "chooses" to bring the final plan with to the EBOR. The district approver did repeatedly emphasize the importance of doing the final plan and suggested strongly bringing it with to the EBOR. As the coach, I am also re-inforcing those statements.

 

I fear for the scout and the beneficiary if the scout blows off the final plan. Any detail oriented project could get ugly and/or fail. But I'll take that risk any day over the situation we had in the past.

 

Mad Max - I agree that the EBOR should be more of a celebration than a meat grinder. Some of the EBOR's I've sat on had a chairman that wanted to make it a challenging, pound-of-flesh experience. I don't really care for that at all. What's the purpose and how's that reflected in BSA publications?

 

Now the EBOR will have little power to evaluate the Eagle project. But to be honest, did they ever really effectively evaluate the project. Heck, if the beneficiary signed off, on what basis would a EBOR have for negatively evaluating the project, in the old or new system?

 

[Twocubdad 665]

You in my council, Fred?

 

I've heard the complaint about the new program that, "we'll end up failing the projects at the EBOR" and "what happens when the EBOR turns down a project and the Scout is already 18?"

 

Don't buy it. The crux of the new system -- and apparently what is bothering some -- is the responsiblity for approving the details of the plan fall to the unit, where it should be. "But some units will pencil-whip projects and some Scouts will get away with easier projects than others!" And how is that different from anything else?

 

As has always been the case, the primary judge of the Eagle project, like all other requirements, is the unit leader. Anyone serving on and EBOR who approaches the process with the idea they are there to give a thumbs up or down to the project needs to rethink their involvement.

 

The new workbook is sufficient for the Scout to communicate the basic scope of the project. If the proposal doesn't communicate to the council/district enough information for them to conclude the project is of sufficient scope and the young man has a handle on what he's getting into, then they should not approve it. There is going to be a learning curve here, for both the unit leaders and the council/district folks.

 

I, for one, still believe projects should be of sufficient scope for the Scout to adequately demonstrate leadership. One indicator of a good project is to take more than one day and/or multiple steps to execute. Scout-hours (not to be confused with man-hours) are another indicator, but not as good as days/sessions. Over multiple days, good projects ebb and flow, problems arise which require adaptation and solutions.

 

 

[fred8033 1593]

Twocubdad - I'm with ya dude. You said it very well.

 

I'm not big either way on the one or more day issue, but it needs to be big enough to show leadership. And that's discussed in multiple places in the new workbook. I'm a huge advocate for the new workbook.

 

Anyway, nicely said. Happy New Year!(This message has been edited by fred8033)

[skeptic 997]

No where do I see any authorization for throwing out a completed and approved project that is turned in as part of the Eagle board prep. Once it is signed off by the required individuals, then it is done. Now, discussion of the project might warrant some serious questions and clarifications. We once had to have the candidate fix paperwork relating to hour compilation so to make it clear that he used more than his sister, mother, and father in completing the project. He had not made his work force clear, nor how many hours they actually contributed. We rescheduled his board and he had reworked the part needed to reflect accuracy and not likely be an issue at National somehow. But, this was done before actually sitting the candidate for the face to face. Review of the paperwork by the board prior to the interview, led to the decision. The scout and his parents understood completely the concerns, and it concluded a couple weeks later successfully.

 

We all learned something from it actually, I think. As a SM, I was reminded that I need to review the final paperwork completely, so as to hopefully eliminate a problem. And the individual that vets the paperwork initially, also realized he had missed this when reviewing initially, and made a note in his checklist to not have that happen again.

 

But, the new forms are far better than those prior to this. And the ability to simply say "see attached" is still there.

[Mad Max 10]

Okay, I've obviously missed something. Do the boys no longer have to submit their Project Workbooks with their Eagle Applications? Where does it say that? If that's the case, then my worries are over.

[eisely 13]

Mad Max:

 

There is another step that is being overlooked in this discussion. That step is the council review to determine completion of all requirements prior to the EBOR. Even if no EBOR ever sees a completed project workbook, I would expect the council office to still demand it. In my experience, the council review has been pro forma, and not concerned with the quality of the project per se. Rather, have all the i's been dotted and t's crossed.

 

Although the entire project process imposes somewhat heavier burdens on units, that is where the burden belongs. Many units don't help their eagle candidates at all, other than rendering signatures when require.

[Mad Max 10]

eisely,

You've got that right. My Council only does a spot check for dotted i's and crossed t's, and maybe a few dates and MB's. I think it's the obligatory computerised check. For the past decade they've really relied upon the Districts to police the Eagle Project quality and our District has done an outstanding job in setting the bar high for the "planning" aspects, so the "project execution" phase is usually successful. Our troops are generally ill equipped to handle Eagle Projects. It is such a specialty area that most troops don't have the right adults to take it on, and if they do, it takes so long for them to figure it out that by that time their own sons have Eagled-out they do too, leaving the unit with the next rookie. In our District our Advancement Committee is made up of seasoned veterans who are passionate about helping fill that gap for the boys. It takes the load off of both the units and the council. I agree it's a huge burden on the units. Unless the unit has L2E volunteers who are also "Project Managers" in real life, they won't have any better clue than the boys do. This new process makes a big assumption that every troop has adults who are willing and able to be the "go-to" Project Managers for their units. In the past 10+ years I've seen some dandies too. (sarcasm intended)

 

So, when I start seeing these new forms come across my desk after the Council has done their quick-check, I predict that I'm going to see a lot of disappointing paperwork, very little leadership, even less exposure to Project Management, and virtually no taking responsibility for a significant accomplishment. As EBOR Chair, am I just supposed to simply ignor it by assuming that between the boy and the unit they did their best and it's too late in the process to do anything about it, or do I draw a line in the dirt and take a stand? I don't want to be the deal-killer during an EBOR, but I also feel a huge responsibility to my fellow Eagle Scouts in keeping a high standard.

 

One thing is for sure, this process will take time to digest.

 

 

 

 

[AvidSM 11]

I think we are getting caught up on how to fill out the detailed plan in the new project Workbook when it is no longer a requirement.

 

What if a scout does all his planning on his I-Phone instead of writing it down on the workbook? And keeps the list of what materials and tools are needed on it, plans out the dates on its calendar app and sends texts to coordinate with others when and where they need to be.

 

Then this scout successfully completes the project and everyone is satisfied with his work and leadership. Can he then use his I-phone show at his EBOR that he has planned and developed the project as required?

 

I say there is nothing in writing that says he can't. The new Workbook says that the candidate is "strongly encouraged to share the final plan with a project coach." And that it is a "tool for your use". There are many other planning tools out there that a scout can use, or he can make up his own.

 

The requirement is to plan, develop and give leadership - not to develop project management or technical writing skills. The new Project Workbook gets us away from this nonsense and the people who promote it.

 

If a candidate chooses to use the new workbook format to plan and develop his project, that's fine. Just don't forget it is for his benefit to use and does not have to be perfect.

 

 

[fred8033 1593]

Mad Max wrote: "I also feel a huge responsibility to my fellow Eagle Scouts in keeping a high standard." You know that's exactly one of the statements that always makes me cringe and not want to be in scouts. Eagle is just a rank and not a better-than-thou club. It's one of my hot buttons along with comments about how the eagle rank should be special or rare or we are producing too many. Those may or may not be valid points when re-working the GTA or debating rank requirements. But I hope that's never part of the discussion when deciding how to treat our scouts.

 

I know that's probably not what you meant. And I can appreciate the sincere feelings. So my apologies. It's just that the statement always makes me think the person is approaching the subject with the wrong attitude. I really wish I'd never hear such quotes again. We're there to support the current scouts. We are NOT there to protect guys who used to be scouts twenty, thirty, forty or fifty years ago. Again my apologies.

 

...

 

eisely wrote: "Even if no EBOR ever sees a completed project workbook" It's still required to be submitted (GTA section 9.0.1.5) and to be provided for EBOR review (GTA section 8.0.1.5). Other than questioning the scout, the workbook is really the only piece that can be used to evaluate if the scout led his project. That's the only criteria I can see a scout failing an EBOR for other than scout spirit. But given that negative EBOR results are so rare to begin with, I'm not sure if it will make it more or less rare. I agree with Mad Max that this will take time to work out.

 

...

 

Though I think the workbook has very good wording about the "Final Plan" and I like that the Final Plan does not need formal approval, but it almost sounds as "Gosh, I don't have to do a final plan." I'm scared for scouts who read it that way. I wish the workbook did have more explicit wording that the scout is expected to address the contents of the final plan and the workbook is the scouts opportunity to communicate his final plans. Even if it's addressed as "Not applicable because ....". I really fear for the scouts and the beneficiaries if the scout blows off the final plan.

 

...

 

AvidSM wrote very good comments. I really like what you said. I fully agree .... except the workbook is still required. GTA section 9.0.1.5 and GTA section 8.0.1.5. I fear for the scout that submit a workbook with an empty final plan. Does he have to use it line by line? No. Does he have to write a novel? No. I think it would be okay to say something like "See printout from iCal" and then attach it. Or even just attach it. BUT, you can't submit nothing.

 

IMHO, if a scout submitted a workbook with an empty final plan and did not include anything else, I'd be hard pressed to let it go. IMHO, it or it's equivalent is required. I'd ask how the scout planned his project. If it's on his phone, then I'd ask him to walk thru how he used his phone and SHOW IT TO US ON THE PHONE. If not with him, I'd suggest suspending the EBOR and asking the scout to provide some amount of the materials he used to plan / coordinate his project.

 

Though the final plan is not "APPROVED", demonstrating that the scout addressed the content is still expected. (i.e. required) If he can't demonstrate he addressed the final plan content, how can the EBOR evaluate if he led his project.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

[Mad Max 10]

Well fred8033, looks like AvidSM has clearly failed to do his homework and in the process explained in much better terms than I as to why I feel a huge responsibility to my fellow Eagle Scouts. Someone needs to go back and do some reading, or training, or both and then report back as to how many times it is written in the Workbook alone: You must use the Eagle Scout Service Project Workbook, No. 512-927, in meeting this requirement. iPhone? Really? Youve got to be kidding.

 

It is THIS kind of nonsense I am concerned with when I talk about the huge responsibility. So, I accept your apologies fred8033, and would have agreed with your probably not what you meant comment, had AvidSM not proven my point.

 

That asideyou can aim your hot button towards someone else. LOL Ive dealt with the guardians of the Eagle holy grail also and am not one of them. When I talk about my fellow Eagles, I am referring to all the boys whom I have welcomed into the brotherhood over the past 10+ years; not the crusty old farts such as myself.

 

I have a scout right now to whom I gave an early copy of the new Workbook so he could use it in organizing his thoughts on materials, helpers, tools, etc.; yes all that spreadsheet and detailed plan stuff that were so hung-up on. The boy clearly needed help with his organization skills and I felt the new formats would help him a lot. Did it? No! He quickly found out that all he had to do was present a Proposal with very little detail and a good line of BS and hed be good to go on a project that is clearly over his head. Fortunately, the troop is bringing a halt to his scam. But, Ive seen similar tactics out of troop adults also. I just think the new process leaves the door wide open for this kind of abuse. Maybe its a sign of the times: Put up with Boy Scouts until youre 18 and then the Unit owes you an Eagle. I tend to disagree, but I see it all the time.

 

Thanks for clearing up the issue of submitting the Workbook along with the application (GTA 9.0.1.5). I was really worried that theyd dumbed it down even more.

 

As far as a scout submitting an otherwise empty Project Workbook, we are on the same page. I just dont like being placed in that position. Once again, Id rather catch a weak Project Plan during the District review than have to deal with it during his EBOR.

 

[fred8033 1593]

Mad Max: I was honest with my apologies. It's just one of my hot buttons. I always cringe anticipating the direction the point will go.

 

Your points are on target and it will be interesting to see how things shake out. We all suffer from "magical" thinking at times. If a scout can get an approved proposal, I can see them not wanting to invest in more paperwork. Depending on the scout and the project, it might be okay. A detail oriented, five year SPL wanting to pull buckthorn? Sure, will probably go okay. Any significant construction project? No.

 

The new process really escalates the importance of a good scoutmaster and good project coach that stay involved and watch what's going on. For our troop, that's okay. We'll gladly bite that bullet compared to the approval BS (not an abbreviation for Boy Scout) that was happening a few years ago.

 

But I do fear for scouts and beneficiaries if that final plan is not done or done well. It's not a matter of the EBOR or earning Eagle, it's whether their service project is something they will be proud of and also useful to the beneficiary ... or just an ugly situation for everyone.

 

Still though, I really like the new workbook and process. It seems like it lets the scout take ownership and responsibility for the results. I view the old jumping through hoops process to get an approval as trying to please someone and not necessarily as taking responsibility. I know plenty of scouts (and parents) who got approvals but spoke openly of their contempt for the process. That's not taking ownership or responsibility. That's just chasing a signature. And ya know the "scamming" scout and adults would probably have tried to scam the old system too.

 

Anyway ... good luck. These conversations will be going on for years to come.