CPR in multiple MB

[sandspur]

Not a BIG gripe I guess, but heres an irritant:

 

How about limiting MB/rank requirement creep? My current heartburn is the requirement in Canoeing MB that the scout must demonstrate CPR with a training device.

 

The same requirement is found in First Aid, Swimming, Water Sports, Rowing and almost the same in Lifesaving. Maybe elsewhere too.

 

So:

 

1. How many times does a scout have to do this? If the scout has the First Aid MB can we say he has passed this requirement for all the others? Do you have him re-qualify for each MB?

2. Cant we just keep it on the First Aid MB and drop the others? Seems silly that a scout cannot go on a week-long canoe trip and not complete the requirements for the canoeing MB there (since we did not canoe with the training dummies!)

3. If we want scouts to be able to perform CR, why not provide/require certification in CPR (at reasonable cost)?

4. Does the MB counselor need to be CPR certified (I am, but I guess you dont have to be). If he/she is not, how much good does this requirement really do? Of course, I am not a CPR trainer (another interesting point??).

5. Do you as a Canoeing or Rowing conselor feel the need to scramble to locate training dummies and materials or set up a full CPR course?

 

For what it is worth, if the scout did it for one merit badge, I call it good for the others.

 

[eagle77]

The answer is real simple, I have all the scouts CPR trained within the first year of Boy Scouts. Having some older leaders along, including myself I would like to know that the scouts know and can do this if the issue comes up. Also covers all the MB's that call for CPR. If getting CPR trained is not do able in your area, then having the scouts do it for each badge is not too much to ask for something so important in both scouting and the streets. Having to do it over and over also means that they keep sharp on the skills too.

[sandspur]

Eagle77:

 

I agree that is the best solution. But if that is what BSA wants, thats what we should do, and SUPPORT as BSA. I am certified, so are most of our scouts and leaders (not all since it is not required).

 

In other words, BSA (council level?) should keep the training/certification materials, mannequins and certified trainers on tap for troops IF that is the intent. Then, certify everyone annually.

 

But the way it is, we are backing in to the requirement, which I suspect is not being done in a useful fashion 99% of the time.

 

How many MB counselors are certified CPR trainers? I know, I know, the requirement does not say you have to be but, if not, how much good did you really do?

 

[Eagle92]

I don't know why CPR is required for so many MBs now, but one troop I know of has the policy that once it's signed off, I beleive for 1st Class, then they will give you credit for the MBs.

 

The only reason I can think of to require it for so many MBs si that it does change very 5 years. AHA holds a big conference with the experts, and they hash together the best practices form the research since the previous conference 5 years prior. Good case for showing the changes; 30:2 compression to breath rate, and the Compression Only CPR to be used on adults only IF yu do not have a barrier device to do the mouth to mouth.

 

My trainer said that the conference will benext year, and that it looks as if more changes maybe headed out way in refernce to CPR.

[Buffalo Skipper]

sandspur,

I am both a Canoeing and Rowing MB counselor. Our troop encourages all scouts to earn the First Aid MB early on. We have a certified RC nurse (CPR instructor) and a PA on our committee, both of whom have 25+ years of scouting experience--perfect as FA MBCs. I agree that once completed, this should count. I have no training dummy (except for my Committee Chair), though I could get one if I really needed it. I discuss this with the scouts at length before we begin, and knowing they have been through the FA MB, I count it as good.

 

We are working to see that all members of the troop get CPR trained. I think this is a smart idea, and beneficial to the troop as a whole. I see no reason why this should not be a slam dunk for these requirements.

 

I also see think this is unnecessary and a bit overboard (pun intended) for all these MBs, but I can see a thread of a connection. Certainly CPR as an issue of drowning (boating related accident) is relevant, but "rescue breathing" is no longer officially taught for CPR--it is compressions only now. If you look at the requrirement for Climbing MB, 1b states: "Identify the conditions that must exist before performing CPR on a person." I think this would be a much more relevant complement for all MBs, or even better, include this for Tenderfoot, and everyone will have met it, so you can remove it from all the MB requirements.

 

For something like First Aid, Lifesaving or even Emergency Preparedness, I would not be opposed to requiring CPR certified training. But I do not mean to hijack the thread with this thought.(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

[Hal_Crawford]

"Certainly CPR as an issue of drowning (boating related accident) is relevant, but "rescue breathing" is no longer officially taught for CPR--it is compressions only now. "

 

I re-certified in May through ARC and they had not gone to compressions only at that point. Has this changed since May?

 

Hal

[Eagle92]

Skipper And Hal,

I know that AHA still teaches the rescue breathing as part of CPR, especially for infant child as most of those cases are respiratory in nature.

 

The only time AHA recommends compression only CPR is unde the follwoing circumstances

A) Victim is an adult, again stress ADULT

B) You do not have a barrier device

C) You are uncomfortable doing mouth to mouth on them.

 

Infant/Child CPR stillyou still need to do mouth to mouth (or mouth to nose for infants) irregardless if you have abarrier device or not.

 

Extra edited bit: Compression only CPR is so new, and important, that AHA came out with it last year and has issued an errata sheet for BLS and Heartsaver courses discussing it. All AHA insgtructors had to go over it in their instructor updates, and are suppsoe to discuss it with their students, but the way AHA has the program formatted, it can be forgotten oby accident. Almost forgot to mention it in one of my classes, had to place the erratum in my book.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

[OldGreyEagle]

Is it the demonstration of CPR that is the issue or the availibilty of Training Dummies that is the issue?

[sandspur]

OldGreyEagle:

 

I see several issues:

 

1. The duplication of the same requirement in many MB. I was interested in how many counselors retrained/retested for each MB or accepted the requirement as complete if it had been done before at some point.

2. Yes, it is a pain for a MB counselor for canoeing or rowing to have to locate training and equipment for the requirement. Especially for one or a few scouts.

3. Is the requirement really providing the results desired since it is not required that CPR be demonstrated/tested/evaluated by a certified instructor (or even that the MB counselor be trained at all in CPR)?

4. If this is desired, seems better for the BSA to simply require CPR certification for everyone and then make the trainers and equipment available.

 

[Mike F]

Yes, it's a pain, but someone's life could very well depend on that Scout's ability to perform CPR or the other first aid hurry cases. Repetition is the key to remembering these critical skills in the heat of an emergency.

 

We treat the first aid skill requirements from T thru 1st Class as a build-up process. They do them one rank at a time. Nobody is stopping motivated scout from charging forward on his own, but we offer the opportunity to train and sign-off only on their next rank's requirements. I very rarely allow a scout under First Class to take the First Aid MB. I want him to have digested the smaller bites before he takes the final MB class which might provide him his only tools as he comes around a corner to the scene of an accident later.

 

As for the other MBs with CPR requirement, we'll only allow other CPR training to count if it was a fairly recent certified Red Cross course. We're fortunate that our District has a good number of willing trainers.

[boomerscout]

why so much CPR? Because any one particular Scout may take only one of the aquatics mb. Even if he takes several, who knows which he'll take first?

Yes, would be nice if every Scout shows up at camp with current year CPR certificate from Red Cross

[Hal_Crawford]

Our summer camp does a mass CPR check two nights after flags. Each scout taking one or more aquatics badges does one demonstration. Any scout with a current CPR certification is signed off without having demonstration.

 

If I had my druthers every scout would be CPR certified every year and be current on at least standard first aid (prreferably WFA for older scouts). Its an ideal but it would be challenging to implement.

 

There is another thread about a scout who who used CPR to save a six year old drowning victim. Perhaps he had that skill due to the repetition from aquatics merit badges.

 

Hal

[Eagle92]

I personally do not mind the repetition, as it is a skill that does need constant practice. Heck I work at a hospital and teach CPR on average 1/month and PRAY i never have to use it for real! That said, the ones who are my best students are the critical care nurses, i.e. ED and ICU, as they do have to use those skills more often than everyone else.

 

As for First Aid and WFA, at this time, it is real easy to get FA instructor and WFA instructor certification through the ARC. You take the class for Instructor, then do a self study for WFA. And there is a need wfor WFA cause it appears that it will be necessary in the future for all units to have someone certified.

[shortridge]

I don't see a problem with requiring CPR proficiency demonstration for each badge. It may be four years from the time a Scout earned First Aid to the time he earns Lifesaving. And he might take Canoeing but never set foot in a rowboat. The more opportunities for proper training in such a critical lifesaving skill, the better.

 

Eagle92: Maybe I'm misunderstanding this... you're saying that someone can be a Wilderness First Aid Instructor under the American Red Cross without having first taken a straight Wilderness First Aid course? Is that right?

[Hal_Crawford]

Here's an idea. It would require a partnership with ARC to make it economically feasible

 

Make CPR certification required for First Class and all aquatics merit badges. The course could be offered at summer camp and through the councils or districts.

 

Scout does a challenge re-certification each year at camp or through council/district.

 

Scout must certify in standard First Aid to get First Aid MB (good for three years).

 

Scout must certify in Wilderness First Aid for Eagle (hopefully before SFA expires).

 

Now that is Being Prepared.