tell me why

[Lisabob]

I didn't want to hijack acco's thread but this has been bugging me a bit. Why should a boy who is no longer registered in a troop be able to continue boy scout advancement via a crew instead? I'm not talking about the cynical (though likely true) explanation of simply wanting to retain members any way we can. I'm talking about programmatic logic. How does it make sense for a boy to earn boy scout awards when he is not even a boy scout any more?

 

For that matter, why should a POR that is not with the troop in any way, count toward boy scout advancement, even for a boy who is dual-registered in a troop and crew?

 

Don't get me wrong, I think Venturing looks like a great program. I just don't get the underlying logic here. It looks like a cheap dodge for boys who want rank advancement but can't be bothered with a troop anymore.

 

 

[emb021]

This is actually a continuation of policy that dates back to the 1930s or so.

 

Back then, National allowed boys who were Sea Scouts or in other senior programs to be able to go on and earn Star, Life, and Eagle, without ever having been a Boy Scout.

 

They also allowed older boys to earn any of the Senior program advancement (Sea, Air, Explorer Scouts) in any program, including Boy Scouts.

 

During the 1960s when National got rid of the Explorer advancement progam, they came up with a special set of requirements to allow Explorers who had never been Boy Scouts to earn Eagle.

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, I've watched it a lot over da years since Venturing came to be Lisabob.

 

I have to admit that I don't think either Scouting or Venturing is served by allowin' this sort of weird accommodation within Venturing. It makes Venturing less its own program. For coed crews, it's really offputting for the female members, especially if male officers try to steer the program toward helpin' them in their advancement. It also gives encouragement to Boy Scout leaders who are dual-registered or crossed over into Venturing to turn a crew into "older Boy Scouts, with girls" rather than really runnin' a Venturing program.

 

That's lots of big downside. Only upside seems to be the "get a boy Eagle" bit, because for the moment Eagle has more recognition than Venturing Silver/Ranger/Quartermaster/etc.

 

In the balance, it just doesn't seem worth it. I think there's a good argument to drop the crossover stuff. I'm not even in favor of allowin' Sea Scouts to earn Ranger or the other Venturing program-specific awards, for da same reason Sea Scouts are against lettin' other Venturing units earn Quartermaster.

 

Each program should stand on its own.

 

Beavah

 

[scottteng]

Because they are still a member of the BSA. Most of them are dual registered but there are those that chose not to belong to a troop or that the troop does not want any more. Scoutmasters find it annoying that an older higher rank boy has developed another interest and is not willing to supervise the middle school scouts. Thank God some of them are so we have SPL's etc. but some of them are selfish and want to expand their own horizons before reaching adulthood.

[OldGreyEagle]

But if the reason was because its part of the BSA, why do you have to first be a First Class Scout before you become a Venturer to continue to Eagle. A boy joining at 15 who has never been a scout cannot earn Eagle in a Crew while a boy who is 15 may earn Eagle if he became a Venturer when he was at least first class. And the Eagles may wear the eagle rank on their Venturing Uniform. Doesnt make sense.

 

Beavah, a Venturer "could" earn the Trust, Quest, Ranger, And Out Door, Sports, Arts and Hobbies, Relious Life and Sea Scout Bronzes and why is that wrong if the youth has ecletic tastes? At least its all in the same program

[Lisabob]

I think mere BSA membership is too low a bar, Scott. Tiger Cubs, Explorers, adult Scouters, and female Venturing Crew members are all BSA members too! Yet none of them (explorers? I'm really not sure there anymore) can earn Eagle, nor should they necessarily be able to do so.

 

On one hand I suppose it is a way to encourage boys to remain dual-registered and active in Boy Scouting, to tell them that they can keep working toward Boy Scout advancement while also getting involved with older-youth programming. On the other hand, when they're not even dual-registered, I can't make sense of it. And I say this as a parent of a 14 year old, 1st Class scout who may opt to drop his troop affiliation and join a crew in the foreseeable future. Eagle is a great goal and very meaningful, but it is a Boy Scout award! It seems kind of illogical to earn it outside of the boy scout program.

 

 

[Bob White]

The big picture is that the BSA the entire movement as one continual program. It is all scouting with, Boy Scouts adresses next growth phase for cubs, Venturing adresses the next growth phase for Boy Scouts. Its all one continuous program. Because of that a Boys scout can continue untill 18 to earn the Eagle once he has completed the Basics in Boys Scouts. A Youth who joins Venturing can now earn all the recognitions and ranks in Venturing including Sea Scout ranks and recognitions, just as Sea Scouts can earn all the awards and recognitions in Venturing. One big preogram.

 

As far as shorting the girls thats silly. As an example in our ship we have some boys who are stil working on Boy Scout advancement and we have some girls working on their Girl Scout Gold. we support their needs equally and it requires no flexing of the program at all.

 

We wil do special Bridge of Honos for the girls just as we do for the boys who make Eagle.

 

 

 

 

[Lisabob]

BW, you'll note that I wasn't arguing for girls to earn Eagle. What I was saying is that if mere BSA membership were the common thread, then we run into some logical problems with various types of BSA members who none the less are ineligible for Eagle.

 

I understand your point about the continuum but then we also ought to see things working in the other direction, where boys can be part of a troop and still earn venturing awards through the troop too. Yet that does not occur (nor should it, in my humble opinion).

[Beavah]

Yah, da problem with the "one big program" notion is the contradictions, eh? Venturers cannot earn Sea Scout Quartermaster, so why should Sea Scouts be allowed to earn Venturing Ranger (or any of the other specialty Venturing unit awards)? They are different programs. And what's sauce for da goose....

 

Similarly, Boy Scouts are not allowed to continue working on Arrow of Light until they graduate from 5th grade or turn 11.5. Once a boy joins a Boy Scout troop, Cub Scout advancement to Cub Scouting's capstone award is closed off. So if Boy Scouts are not allowed to earn the Arrow of Light, why should Venturers and Sea Scouts be allowed to earn Eagle? They are different programs.

 

B

 

[Bob White]

"Yah, da problem with the "one big program" notion is the contradictions, eh? Venturers cannot earn Sea Scout Quartermaster, so why should Sea Scouts be allowed to earn Venturing Ranger (or any of the other specialty Venturing unit awards)? They are different programs. And what's sauce for da goose....

 

The problem with that is that you are incorrect in your premise. Venturers can indeed earn the Quartermaster Award.

 

 

Similarly, Boy Scouts are not allowed to continue working on Arrow of Light until they graduate from 5th grade or turn 11.5. Once a boy joins a Boy Scout troop, Cub Scout advancement to Cub Scouting's capstone award is closed off. So if Boy Scouts are not allowed to earn the Arrow of Light, why should Venturers and Sea Scouts be allowed to earn Eagle? They are different programs.

 

A Boy Scout earns the Scout Badge which has the same requirements as the AOL. It's an extremely small number of Cubs who go on to Boy Scouts without the AOL having been earned, so it is not something that effects many scouts.

 

There is nothing a crew or ship has to alter in their program for the scout to earn Eagle. Remember that he has First Class Before he joins Venturing. So the majoity of work that is left is merit badges and they are done outside of the unit activities. All he really does in the crew or ship is his leaderhip time and that doesn't negatively effect the units service to other and it doesn't keep females in the unit from having an equal amount of participation.

 

Anyone who has dealt with this at a crew or ship level understands what a non-issue this is.

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Eagledad]

>>Anyone who has dealt with this at a crew or ship level understands what a non-issue this is.

[Bob White]

My point of non-issue was addressing some posters concerns that scouts working on Boy Scout Ranks in crew or Ships was in some way a burden on the program, or gave more attention to male than female scouts and that is just not true.

 

In the unit I serve every dual registered scout has finished or is finishing their Eagle through the Ship. (We have way cooler ceremonies than the troops). Not that it matters to us. We just encourage the scouts to work on their goals and leave the choice to them as to what they wwant to do. We would celbrate their achievement just the same way whether they finished throuth the Ship or the Troop.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Eagledad]

Yes, I think the adults in your ship encourage advancement and do a good job with it. I don't think that is typical of most crews and ships, at least not around here.

 

Barry

[Beavah]

The problem with that is that you are incorrect in your premise. Venturers can indeed earn the Quartermaster Award.

 

We've been down this road before, eh? That's what I thought, too, but you corrected me in this thread:

 

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=182722&p=3

 

I later checked with Venturing Division, and they confirmed you were correct, eh? A Venturer cannot earn Quartermaster as a Venturer. To earn Quartermaster, they must be registered as a Sea Scout, because those are separate programs.

 

Beavah

 

[Bob White]

Your pleas must have moved them, for while they must still attend Ship activities, the new revised Adcvancement Committee Policies and Procedures now says that a Venturer can earn the QM Award.