AoL/Scout

[Lisabob]

Just to throw a wrench in the works, on occasion I have known boys who earned their AOL very early in their 5th grade year and didn't cross over into a troop for several months.

 

For those who make an argument that the AOL and Scout badge requirements can be completed simultaneously, would you still advocate that position even in this case? In your view, does the overlap only apply if the kids follow what is probably more "typical" and earn their AOL at the very end of their cub scouting career, within days of crossing over?

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

I cant think of a prouder new scout who can sit down with either the Patrol Guide or Instructor or adult leader and run through the requirements and be told you know your stuff. If he doesnt know them then he learns that he has to know his stuff to get requirments signed off in Boy Scouts I call it win win

[SWScouter]

I guess I have trouble with this whole concept of "Earning" the scout badge. For one, it's a lot simpler than earning AOL. The only thing the scout has to learn is to tie a square knot. The hardest part really is getting the parents to sit down and go through the youth protection insert with the scout. The rest is just a sit down for a few minutes and go over the stuff with the Scoutmaster. Let's not make more of the scout badge than it is supposed to be: what a boy does to join boy scouts.

 

SWScouter

[Stosh]

Of course, one can also use the Scout rank requirements to serve as a learning opportunity for the various parts of the troop. This requires the PL's to develop a curricula for planning out their meeting, working with each boy, doing followup on the pamphlet, etc. How well the PL does will give an indication of how serious he will be taking the T-1C requirements. If he just "blows through" them because the scout already knows the stuff, then the president is set to "blow through" the rest. I told my PL's that I would be doing a complete and serious SM conference with each boy, not to check to see if he learned the stuff, but I wanted to know how well the PL was teaching. Last night we had our first patrol ready for a serious BOR for Scout rank.

 

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know ya can't add requirements to the rank. But I can give learning opportunities to the new boys so they get their feet wet in a BOR that "doesn't count" but when it does, they'll be prepared. The adults were new (took on a bunch of new CM's this year and they too needed the experience of doing a few freebie BOR's.) I figured I'd get some feedback from the CC and BOR members because then I wasn't going to judge my PL's effectiveness based just on my own perceptions. The CC came to me after the meeting and was very impressed. He said that all the boys did their BOR's at a maturity and articulation level normally seen in 2nd Class or 1st Class BOR's. Does that mean I can relax a little with my PL's knowing they're doing a better than average job? Probably not, but I know I don't have to worry so much about the boys "blowing through" the next level of requirements.

 

I find that the Scout requirements/process is a great teaching tool for the new scouts, the older instructors/PL's, the SM to get to know the boys and the CM's doing some great orientation BOR's. Maybe one ought to take the opportunity seriously.

 

Stosh

[Bob White]

AOL and Scout Badge cannot be completed simultaneously because to complete the requirements for the Scout Badge you have to JOIN a Boy Scout troop. So you cannot complete Boy Scout requiremenmts as a Webelos. You can learn an identical skill as a Webelos, but you will still need to show that you have that knowledge when you join the troop.

 

There is NOTHING in the BSA program that suggests you simply give the Scout Badge to a new scout who earned the Arrow of Light as a Webelos.

 

This does not mean you have to reteach them information they may already know. Any experienced instructor should know that you need to learn what the learner already knows, and then support what is right, correct what is incorrect, and teach what is unknown.

 

So as OGE offers, sit down with the new scout and find out what parts of the Scout Badge he knows and teach what is missing. A new Scout with the AOL should be able to breeze through it, if he really learned his AOL requirements.

 

Besides the requirements are not that tough, and they can easily be taught in less than 90 minutes. The toughest part is getting the parents to have reviewed the pullout section and sign it. As a Troop leader we always gave that assignment out during the parents vist prior to the Webelos crossing over and asked them to complete it with the scout and send it back signed at their first meeting.

 

But AOL and Scout are not passed together. The Webeolos leader does the AOl with the boy as a Cub Scout and the troop does it with the boy as a Boy Scout.

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Scouting Mom]

Overlooking the obvious absurdity of allowing a boy to earn a rank for a program before he is actually a part of the program....

 

Requirement number 10 for the Scout rank is...

"Participate in a Scoutmaster conference. Turn in your Boy Scout application and health history form signed by your parent or guardian, then participate in a Scoutmaster conference."

 

You have to turn in your application for the program THEN have the required conference. Once you turn in your application and the Boy Scout unit accepts it, you are no longer a Cub Scout and are no longer eligible to earn AOL. For many boys, they are going to Boy Scouts only after earning AOL because they aren't 11 years old yet. If they aren't 11 or finished 5th grade, and they haven't earned their AOL the SM isn't supposed to let them turn in an application therefore the SM cannot have the subsequent conference. If they are 11 or finished with 5th grade and they turn in an application and it is accepted by the unit then they have ended their opportunity to earn AOL then the SM can do the conference, but the boy can't go back and earn AOL after turning in the Boy Scout application, because they have ended their membership with the Cub Scout unit.

[Bob White]

"Once you turn in your application and the Boy Scout unit accepts it, you are no longer a Cub Scout and are no longer eligible to earn AOL.

 

Actually that is incorrect. The boy is not a Boy Scout until AFTER the application and money has been sent to the council office and processed. I would often accept an application from a Webelos family prior to the scout crossing over and would hold it until after the scout crossed. Think of it as a "letter of intent". Once the Scout received the AoL I would send the application to the office.

 

 

[Stosh]

And what about the boys who get AOL and never register in a troop? Have they in fact earned the AOL?

 

I have seen many AOL Webelos cross over to nothing, they just go back and sit with their parents after they cross the bridge rather than be welcomed into a troop.

 

It sure is strange how these boys can "earn" the award without ever attending the Boy Scout outing nor having a SM conference as the requirements state.

 

If such practices become common place, the value of the award will surely diminish.

 

Stosh

[Bob White]

How are you able to tell that a boy has not attended a Boy Scout activity or met with a Scoutmaster just by the way the crossover ceremnony is done???

[molscouter]

jblake47,

 

All the requirements say is that you have to visit a troop meeting of a troop you think you might like to join and have a conference with the Scoutmaster. It doesn't say you have to join that troop. You might decide on the basis of that meeting that you don't want to join at all. In fact, I notice that since I was a WDL, they've taken out the part about filling out the application. Not joining a troop doesn't necessarily mean you didn't do all the requirements, just that you decided not to join.

 

Now, I'm not sure they should be crossing the bridge but that's another discussion.(This message has been edited by molscouter)

[Oak Tree]

This discussion happened awhile back - http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=92084. I guess I'd need to see the wording in the current printing in order to see if anything has changed. My default answer would be yes, if the boy earns the Arrow of Light, he gets the Scout badge.

 

 

[Beavah]

After you have completed all five of the above requirements, and after a talk with your webelos den leader, arrange to visit, with your parent or guardian, a meeting of a Boy Scout troop you think you might like to join. Have a conference with the Scoutmaster. Complete and turn in a "Join Boy Scouting" application to the Scoutmaster during the conference.

 

Yeh all are overthinkin' this, IMO.

 

Don't confuse ScoutNet or paperwork with the intent of what we want to have happen for kids.

 

We want the transition to be seamless, however yeh accomplish that. So the very last requirement for AOL is to complete the very first badge for Boy Scouting. A lad should never have an empty spot on his left pocket.

 

Now you can accomplish "seamless" differently, if yeh don't like the way it's laid out in the Advancement Method materials, eh? But da goal should be seamless.

 

Beavah

 

[FScouter]

"My default answer would be yes, if the boy earns the Arrow of Light, he gets the Scout badge."

 

If that's the case, it would be best if the den leader presented the Scout badge at a den meeting.

 

[Oak Tree]

I'm going to stick with the seamless argument. The Scout award is a Boy Scout award, given to someone who joins Boy Scouts if they already have the Arrow of Light. It's just like setting your starting pay rate in a job - if you come in with more experience, you can start at a higher band. At least, that's how I think of it. It's not a Cub Scout award, so it can't be given by a den leader.

 

At our crossover pack meeting, the boys typically earn Arrow of Light and have that presented by the Cubmaster. Then, later in the meeting, the boys will cross the bridge. When they get to the Boy Scout side of the bridge, we give them all shoulder loops, a handbook, and for those who earned the Arrow of Light, the Scout rank.

 

I like the 'seamless' idea and I think it works pretty well for those boys who earn the AOL. Where it doesn't work so well is for boys who don't complete it. If they are already 11, they can join the troop, but they do have a blank spot on their shirt until they complete the Scout requirements. This is the same for boys who join later in the year, not out of Cub Scouts. I wish there was some patch you got just for joining. I've had a couple boys who have gone months without finishing those up ("no, my parents haven't gotten around to doing that exercise with me yet").

 

But where there's a great big gaping hole in the Scout continuum is for boys who don't earn the AOL but who aren't yet 11. They are supposed to wait until they complete fifth grade or turn 11 before they can join the troop. So for two or three months, they sit there in Scouting No-man's land, too old for Cub Scouts (and with no den left), but too young for Boy Scouts. I find this period to be just ridiculous. I think that many troops will take the boys anyway, on the theory of what's best for the boy. Our troop will take boys after crossover.

[Bob White]

Scout is not a rank, nor do the requirements for AoL cover All the requirements for the Scout Badge. They are close, but they are not complete.