Local TP's & Training Activities

[GaHillBilly]

Hi All;

 

I've got another question, concerning the swim training / MB work / checkout activity I'm trying to arrange: I just took my first detailed look at a Local Tour Permit . . . and it doesn't seem to apply!

 

Point #1: It appears the MB counselors can meet with (2) or more Scout counselees, with no other adult present, and no LTP required.

 

Point #2: No LTP is required for the regular Scout meeting.

 

Point #3: No LTP is required (I think! Corrections?) for an individually scheduled meeting of the PLC.

 

Point #4: The LTP self-describes itself as being "for trips and camps under 500 miles".

 

Point #5: The language (and blanks) of the LTP are 'all about' modes of transportation from point A to point B. The permit itself authorizes "all travel between _______ and _____".

 

etc.

 

Conclusion #1: The LTP, and requirements that an LTP be filed, do not apply to an event or activity where the guardians provide (or arrange for) transportation to point A, unless the Scouts LEAVE point A to go to point B by means of BSA / Troop provided transportation.

 

Conclusion #2: The regulatory 'trigger' for an LTP is transportation from A to B, rather than the nature of the activity taking place at A.

 

My problem is that some of the training I want to do will need to take place at locations that will be available (or useful) on short notice. For example, I'm expecting to have access to a local prep school indoor pool on a Saturday or Sunday PM within the next 3 weeks. But, I'm not going to know which dates are available till early next week. Once I do, I'll have to check with the parents to see which dates work best. But . . . at that point, it will be too late to file an LTP within the time frame allowed. The key is that the parents would be delivering and picking up the Scouts at the pool itself, and would be welcome to stay and observe if they like.

 

I've already spoken with someone at the Council. She initially told me that an LTP was required, but the conversation quickly went out of her 'comfort zone' once I began asking about how to fill our the form, since it requires two locations (a origin and a destination), and so on. From the way she responded, I'm guessing I've stumbled into a regulatory inconsistency, which is likely handled in different ways at different times. (I know that LTP's are not being filed for all MB / Scout meetings.)

 

My options, as I understand them are:

 

1) File a blizzard of presumptive LTP's, for all possible future activity, and then cancel all the ones I don't need.

 

2) File on a regular I-am-really-planning-this basis, and just bail out and reschedule if I guess wrong.

 

3) Don't file, using a letter-of-the-law defense against any challenges.

 

4) Count the activity as an 'embed' within a PLC meeting. (This is possible, since the focus of all these activities is to train PLC members so they can train the troop members.)

 

5) Other options, which you may suggest?

 

Let me say in advance, for a number of reasons, we WILL have 2 registered adults at all events; we WILL adhere to all BSA safety standards (to the best of my knowledge) for any activity, etc.

 

My problem is the 3 weeks minimum time frame required to complete and submit an LTP.

 

To give another example, I'm working with several scouts on a number of the nature related merit badges, and on nature-related rank advancement requirements. (Again, all can be considered members of the PLC.) In a nearby park (less than 10 miles from the regular troop meeting location), the absolute prime time to spot numerous types of wildlife (or wildlife sign) is just after a heavy rain which follows on a dry period, or a snow shower. You can go the park now, walk for hours, and see nothing but deer or squirrel. Go after the rain or snow, and you see many other animals, or else 'sign' of them.

 

If it's permitted, I could call parents / Scouts and invite them on 24 - 48 hr notice to participate in a short hike (5 miles or less) with the parents dropping off, and picking up the Scouts at the trail parking lot. Obviously, I haven't mastered scheduling either the rain or snow, so filing advance LTP's is impossible, except on a speculative basis.

 

But, I don't want to stir up a firestorm at the Council, nor cause problems for the troop's SM. Favorable precedents established elsewhere might help, if any such exist.

 

I do recognize that it may be the intent of BSA National to require LTP's for all activities except regular meetings, and PLC meetings. In this case, the proper (and prudent!) thing is to simply recognize that that their forms don't fully reflect their intention, and accept that the price of a well-ordered organization is a certain amount of lumbering inflexibility.

 

Advice, please?

 

GaHillBilly

 

PS: Forgive me, but I'm hoping to use the forum here to ask questions that are too difficult to ask locally and face to face.

[John-in-KC]

First and foremost, the Tour Permit is a PROCESS AID, not a "check-a-block." It's designed to support the SM, the Committee, and (if they're mature enough to work it) the PLC as you plan events.

 

Much of the information you can archive to a master (such as a driver's file), then you slice out the drivers who will not participate. Ditto making sure you have the right numbers of trained adults.

 

Tour permits cover operations of a unit FROM a gathering place, TO one or more destinations, and final return TO the gathering place. I have seen units put the responsibility on families to get kids TO the activity site, it being the gathering place. I've seen units gather at their meeting site and travel under TP to a site.

 

Beyond the unit, the Tour Permit is an assurance to your Chartered Partner that you have done your homework. Remember, BSA liability insurance protects the Chartered Partner from your actions... it also protects you the leader, but its first purpose is to protect the partner.

 

Tour Permits are definitely an area where a member of the Professional Service (DE, Field Director, or SE) can help you. As a backup, a Commissioner should also be able to help you.

 

Finally, yours or a neighboring Council should offer supplemental training such as "University of Scouting" now and again. Trip planning is a fairly typical class!

[scottteng]

First of all take a nice deep cleansing breath let it out nice and slowly. Repeat and repeat again. A tour permit is a tool that the council and national have come up with to ensure that if you transport a troop or portion thereof that you have thought of certain things in advance. There are plenty of events where no tour permit is required for example the beaver patrol meets at John's house for a patrol meeting, OA members go to an OA function, two or more boys meet with a MB counselor, weekly troop meetings, any event that is optional no transportation required the example already sited is Univ of Scouting there are classes for scouts at ours we tell them but showing up is their responsibility.All of these things will usually be defined to be local(within ones council) and not overnite with the exception of the OA functions. Please do not bury your council staff in a flood of meaningless paperwork you may never live it down.

[Beavah]

Yah, HillBilly! Thanks for remindin' us all what it's like to be an enthusiastic new leader!

 

Like J-in-KC says, Tour Permits are meant to be a help to you and information to the council, not so much a regulatory thing. Makes sure your TC knows what's going on and approves, makes sure you've thought through a few major risk issues like transportation.

 

Since it's not a regulatory thing, there's different practices different places. Some councils don't require a tour permit for any activity or outing within their council boundaries. Others want one for an outing (day trip or overnight), even if it's in their service area. Nobody expects tour permits for MB counseling sessions or troop meetings.

 

So....

 

Point #1: Correct. A Merit Badge Counselor can meet with two or more boys with no second adult and no tour permit. Just no one-on-one.

 

Point #2,#3: Correct. No tour permit is expected for meetings (troop, PLC, patrol, etc.).

 

Point #4: Correct, with a couple of caveats. National Tour Permits are expected for trips across international borders even if less than 500 miles. As I mentioned, some councils don't accept tour permits for outings within their council service area.

 

Point #5: Yep, most of the blanks are about transportation, because that's typically the biggest risk. But there are a few other blanks and check boxes, eh? It's not just about transportation.

 

Conclusion #1: Nope. Tour permit required for an outing, period. Even if the parents drive their own boys to the campsite, you still should be filing a tour permit for the camping.

 

Conclusion #2: Nope. Trigger is an outing (as opposed to a meeting). If your troop does outdoor meetings a lot, you might consider anything over 4 hours to be an "outing."

 

Other information: While a local tour permit asks for 2 weeks advance notice, that is not the reality. Most are approved by some random council office worker immediately upon receipt. A bit of friendly sweet-talkin' will get you 1-day turnaround.

 

Hope dat helps, eh? It really is a fairly rational system if yeh don't get too caught up in the bureaucratic contradictions

 

Beavah

 

[Oak Tree]

When I first took training, I wanted a clear, definitive answer to this question. Some instructors would oblige. "Any time you are away from your home site you should file a tour permit." By this, they were including Tiger Cubs going to the local fire station. Other instructors would give other definitive answers. Finally I realized there is no clear answer. Some councils do have more clear rules on their web sites. Ours does not. It's just a tool. File a permit when you think it makes sense and you'll be fine.

[GaHillBilly]

Ugg! Clear as mud.

 

It sounds like the actual practice in different councils varies quite a bit. I interpret the responses collectively as evidence that there's no clear and absolute guidance from national on the question, "To LTP or NOT to LTP?", at least with respect to local events with no transportation provided.

 

Given that practice varies, it sounds like I need to back off for the moment, put my ear to the ground locally, and find out what will be acceptable and not cause a ruckus here.

 

Thanks,

 

GaHillBilly

 

PS: I envy anyone in a council that can get an LTP back in a day. I had to camp out in the office of the records secretary for a total of 5 hours, spread over three days, all while smiling nicely, and making flattering conversation, just to get my merit badge counselor status completed. This took place 3 MONTHS after the original application had been submitted by the CC.

 

I don't know how common a problem it is, but I've already discovered that boys in this council absolutely need to maintain their own independent but authenticated paper records of advancement and merit badge progress.

 

 

[CNYScouter]

 

In my council we are told to file a tour permit anytime a unit does not meet or is doing any activity outside its regular meeting place.

I also have been told if we are absolutely positive that parents were going to be driving their Scout only to and from the activity that no tour permit was needed but if there was any chance that a parent would need to drive another Scout home, you should file a tour permit.

 

It is also suggested to keep a list of all drivers in the unit and turn them all in on the Tour permit. This way if a change is made at the last minute they are listed.

 

A Tour Permit is a lot different than getting a MBC application approved.

I wouldnt take the 3 weeks to file a tour permit as set in stone.

 

About a year ago our council sent out a notice that it was going to take at least 2 weeks to process tour permits to verify contents.

Shortly after that I went over to the council office to turn in a tour permit, about 3 weeks before a trip, and get something from the Scout store.

I gave the TP to the receptionist first then went into the Scout Shop.

On the way out she called me over and had the tour permit done, less than 15 mins.

I was expecting it to be mailed back to me

 

For our August trip I mailed it in and had it mailed back in 3 days.

 

As you can see from all the examples that every council handles these differently.

I would suggest you go to roundtable and ask or talk with your DE and see what your councils rules on Tour permits are.

 

As a side note, my CO and I had a long chat with our DE about BSA insurance.

The topic of Tour Permits came up.

The act of not filing one, by itself, will not cancel BSA insurance.

If something happens 99.99% of the time a leader will be covered without having one filled.

He did say that not filing one could cancel coverage as it could be shown as part of a series of negligent acts.