help me i'm confused

[scottteng 11]

My son has sort of accidently met all the requirements for star rank. He is currently a first class scout in a small troop composed mostly of home schooled kids. He currently has 13 merit badges six eagle required, and is working on three additional mb's with five new cards for winter camp starting December 26. A mb's but one have been earned at council camps ie summer camp winter camp. He is working on Camping, Family Life with his current troop and cycling with another troop in town. He lacks one activity for camping mb rappelling or canoe or cycling. He has already done one of the 15 mile cycling trips but not in conjunction with a campout. He was elected patrol leader May 2006 against my advice. I did not feel he was ready to be patrol leader but he tried, only to lose election to another boy in November. His volunteer hours were for summer reading at the library a total of 14 hours 4 of which he used for his reading mb and 6 of which were for star. He also volunteered some 40 hours to cub scout day camp which as they benefited scouting were not counted for anything but which I believe show scout spirit. Of the other boys in his troop none have any more than one or two merit badges due to parents not wanting to send boy's to camp where God forbid they might learn a dirty word. All requirements met he was scheduled for a BOR at which time he was told by BOR chair that he had passed and congrats on achieving the next step. I was unfortunately committed to a class on scout night when all of this was happening. Next thing I know his BOR was overturned by the scout master for his "bad" behavior during a scout meeting. This is a hyper kid who was supposed to be the elected patrol leader(the only patrol leader) at the time. I know what happened he got mouthy with the scout master after all after JLT at Univ of scouting a 12 year old knows it all.

 

I am at my wits end with this. I have complained to the new disrict commissioner. I have told the scoutmaster that in order to expect the boys to be trustworthy the adults in the troop must be trustworthy. I am ready to vote with my amd my sons feet, we have another troop where I am friends with the SM and he has several boys on the cusp of eagle that my son will receive much more effective mentoring at. The boys in his current troop seem real happy with being first class and goofing off, I kind of hoped that mine would catch the vision and shoot for eagle. I feel obligated to the troop we are with because they need two deep for a lot of outings where I am the second, but their program is so poor I have had to seek out other ways to proceed towards the goals I and my son have.

[OneHour 11]

My 1st question is ... what is the scoutmaster doing overturning a BOR? Scoutmaster is not part of BOR process. Besides, once your advancement chair and the BOR signed off ... he has gotten his rank whether or not the scoutmaster likes it or not. Secondly, behavior issues are dealt with at a scoutmaster conference. He is overstepping his boundary! I'd file a complaint with your advancement chair and his boss, committee chair. If he does not change, change troop, but it sounds as if you and your son are planning to any way! Have fun with the new troop.

 

1Hour

[derf56 11]

I have been a member of this forum for a few years now. This is my first ever reply to a subject. After being on the council advancement committee, for 15 years,I though I saw and heard everything. Aparently I have not. I must inform you that a scoutmaster cannot overturn the decision of a board of review. In fact no one can overturn the decision of a BOR.

[sst3rd 129]

Sounds like this Scoutmaster "owns" the program and the Committee is taking their queue from him. Since this Troop's program stinks, run don't walk to that other troop.

 

Yes, I'm being blunt. But in this case, let's be selfish in favor of your son. He deserves the best Scout program available. Let your old Troop proceed on its path of self destruction.

 

As far as you feeling guilty that the old Troop can't get that second adult on Troop activites without you, speaks volumes again as to the poor quality of their program. For the sake of your son and you, take your support to that other Troop. Help support and enhance their programs, which are obviously headed in the right direction.

 

sst3rd

[frank10 12]

You'd be doing yourself, your son and the troop a favor if you left.

As long as you stay no one will step up to be the second. Maybe your leaving will wake them up. If not, maybe it will kill the troop so the boys can go out and find a real troop.

[scoutldr 738]

As everyone (I hope) knows, the proper sequence of events is

 

1. SM certifies that all requirements have been met (including Scout Spirit).

2. SM and scout "participate" in a SM conference.

3. A BOR is scheduled and held.

4. If the BOR is successful, the troop committee (BOR members) approves the advancement.

 

ONce you get to step 4, there is no turning back. The SM was out of line. A call to the District Advancement Chair should set things straight. If your son was disrespectful AFTER his Star BOR, then that's a matter for the NEXT SM conference and Life BOR. This one's done.

[SemperParatus 1]

'These boots were made for walkin' and that's just what they'll do...'

 

Every parent should seek out the absolute best scouting environment for their child. It sounds like you have much better options that should be considered.

 

 

[Beavah 205]

Yah, yah, let's all jump all over da poor SM who clearly is an evil, wicked, awful human being because one boy's parent is upset.

 

Sheesh.

 

And it's a great service to the kid and to scouting for a bunch of folks who really know nothin' beyond the account of an upset dad to wind that dad up even more and tell him to go chargin' in to pull his kid, disrupt the troop, etc. etc.

 

Shame.

 

Scotteng, I read your message and I see a different scene. A boy just finishes his BOR, earns Star, and then before the SM can give him the patch at the end of the meetin' he disrupts the meeting and (as you admit) mouths off to the SM. So the SM, rather than give a high rank award to a boy who has just been a terrible example to all the other kids in the room, puts the badge in his pocket and says "not this week." When the boy makes an additional stink, he says he's holding his Star rank for now (usin' whatever words he can think of on the spur of the moment).

 

I salute the SM for doin' the right thing. The boy should be made to go back to the SM, apologize, and demonstrate good behavior for at least one full meeting before bein' recognized as a Star Scout. We don't pin medals on kids' chests immediately after they've behaved like that.

 

Support the SM in helpin' your son learn how to be Helpful at a meeting and respectful to the youth and adult leaders in charge. That's your first job, dad. And relax a bit, junior will get more out of the program without pushin' to make Eagle at age 13. Those 12 year old First Class boys who are havin' fun aren't all wrong, eh?

 

After that, down the road, it's OK to say, "Hey, a different troop may be a better fit for my son" if he agrees. But I hope your other choice in troops also has a SM who has high expectations for behavior, not one who will let his buddy's kid skate by.

 

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[dan 10]

BUT Beavah

The original post said the SM overturned the BOR. NOT that he was going to hold on to the patch for a little while.

Big difference in overturning the BOR and holding onto the patch.

Are you saying the SM spoke in haste and frustration? If so shame on him. Double shame on him for not correcting the situation quickly. If Scott had time to contact the district commissioner, the SM had time to explain it better to the scout.

 

[acco40 95]

Yes, the Scoutmaster, who is in charge of the troop's advancement program, was out of line. He has no right to "remove" a rank that was earned by a Boy Scout. (Something that all of the riff-raff should consider when they want the National Council to strip Eagle Scouts who do things later in life that are not "Scout like" such as Arthur Bishop, Gary Hirte, Scott Peterson, L. Ron Hubbard, Michael Moore, etc.)However, a few of your comments piqued my interest as well.

 

1) He is working on Camping, Family Life with his current troop and cycling with another troop in town. One does not work on merit badges with troops, one works with merit badge counselors. This is something many, many Scouters and Scouts seem to forget.

 

2) He was elected patrol leader May 2006 against my advice. I did not feel he was ready to be patrol leader but he tried, only to lose election to another boy in November. He was elected as a patrol leader. That's great. I'm assuming he ran again in November was not re-elected. No big deal. I've noticed in our troop that the boys track record in selecting youth leadership did not match my own. It is a learning experience for both the boys on the ballot and the voters. Just like you and me, we get the leaders we select.

 

3) This is a hyper kid who was supposed to be the elected patrol leader(the only patrol leader) at the time. I know what happened he got mouthy with the scout master after all after JLT at Univ of scouting a 12 year old knows it all. I'm somewhat confused by the above. Are you stating that your son is a hyper kid who was "supposed" to be the PL? What is your statement implying? My current SPL (I'm a Scoutmaster) came out of NYLT this summer thinking that now, he knows it all. (He's 13.) I would calmly talk to the Scoutmaster, without your son, and get his take on things. Use it as an opportunity to get his point of view and also to inform him of your thoughts.

 

What troubles me is nowhere in your post do you mention if your son would like to change troops. It should be his decision, not yours.

[Beavah 205]

Yah, dan, I think it's unreasonable to expect a SM to parse his words as carefully as an attorney when dealin' with a youth mouthin' off to him in the middle of a meeting, eh? I also don't think upset parents often get their quotations exactly right, eh? I think we have to read into the situation a bit when we get the one-sided posting of an aggrieved party. Almost all of the Scouting volunteers I know are really good people, who deserve the benefit of the doubt, eh?

 

And of course, it's hard for a SM to sit quietly with a boy and work through it if dad immediately goes ballistic because it's disruptin' the quest for a 13 year old Eagle. Yah, and it didn't seem like the DC did much more than listen and perhaps gently support the SM.

 

I'm old, and old fashioned. I think the default position for all parents should be to support the other adults in a boy's life. What mom says, what the teacher says, what the coach says, what the SM says goes as far as correctin' behavior. Dad may not like it if mom says "no baseball this weekend." But even if he thinks mom is wrong, he'd better back mom up if he wants a boy who isn't a brat.

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[dan 10]

Again BUT Bevah

How about the

Double shame on him for not correcting the situation quickly.

You seem to have ignored this part?

 

[Beavah 205]

Yah, dan.

 

I guess it all depends what yeh feel is most important.

 

Is gettin' the letter of the wordin' of the BSA Advancement system right the most important?

Or is helpin' a boy learn proper behavior, respect, and character most important?

 

I care that the SM does the latter. I think only people with too much time on their hands worry overmuch about the former.

 

But imagine this conversation:

 

Dad: "Why didn't junior get his Star tonight?"

SM: "Because junior behaved like a 2-year-old at the meeting and called me an a-hole."

Dad: "Well he shouldn't have done that, but he passed his BOR so you owe him the rank."

SM: "Yeah, well, when he demonstrates he's ready to wear the patch with honor, I'll give it to him, but not a moment before."

Dad: "You can't do that. He passed his BOR, so you have to award him his patch immediately. That's what it says in the BSA literature. Immediate is immediate!"

SM: "I really don't care about him passing the BOR. In this case, I'm in charge, not the BOR. He doesn't get his patch until he apologizes and shows that he is ready to wear it."

[Dad then screams to the forum and the DC that the SM says he can overrule the BOR and take a boy's rank away.]

 

If SM loses this one, the message to the boy and to all the other boys in the troop is that it's OK to mouth off to adults and be disruptive, because you still get awards and everyone applauds you.

 

Now, I don't know what the real conversation has been, any more than you do, eh? I just gently suggest that being Loyal to our fellow volunteers, and Helpful to an upset parent, involves considerin' other perspectives and important issues like how best to build character.

 

Givin' Scotteng a different perspective may help, eh? And the forum not immediately jumpin' on the bandwagon of every helicopter parent with a beef with their unit's leadership is a habit we should grow into, even if it doesn't apply to Scotteng. (This message has been edited by Beavah)

[acco40 95]

First of all, if a Scout just had his BOR, the SM should NOT have a rank patch available to give to him. If a Scout passes his BOR, he has earned the rank. The SM should then recognize the Scout immediately via a verbal announcement. At the next oppurtunity, next troop meeting for example, he can recognize again by presenting him with a rank patch. Last, at the next COH, the SM (or advancement chair, etc.) recognizes the Scouts accomplishment again. Three recognitions should be the norm.

 

Now, if between the BOR and before the SM recognizes the Scout initially, the boy mouths off to the Scout the SM can handle the situation in many ways. The way I would handle it is to announce that "Johnny passed his BOR tonight." Simple, curt and matter of factly. Then I would announce to Johnny that he also has a Scoutmaster Conference scheduled for next week to discuss Scout Spirit. The message would be sent and no violations of the Scout program would occur.

 

Beavah, I think you take much to lightly the so called "rules" of the Scouting program. We, Scout leaders, have promised to deliver this program and would be no less culpable than the mouthy 12 year old in violating the Scout Oath and Law if we "bent the rules" to our satisfaction because we, in our infinite wisdom, thought that we were really helping the boy by doing so.

 

(This message has been edited by acco40)

[dan 10]

Bevah

 

You think the SM blew up at the meeting, as do I.

 

I think this is an issue, you do not.

 

I think some time had to pass for Scott to contact the DC. I have not idea what you think on this, you keep ignoring this part.

 

Are you saying the SM should TRY to remove this scouts advancement?

Or just hold on the the patch?

 

You ask me what is more important, I say the scout you say the scouter, I guess we will have to disagree on this point.