Scout Spirit - Here we go again

[Hunt 11]

"I agree that it would be difficult to get people in the Troop to help at an Eagle project if they dont know who you are and that could be an incentive but he wasnt planning on really inviting the Troop to help anyway. He knows he isnt required to have Scout help so he was going to rustle it up somewhere else."

 

Wow...and now you're in the position of trying to get him to allow the Scouts in the troop to help.

 

Perhaps my comments before were too harsh, but I'm still annoyed by the temerity of a boy who behaves this way. If it happened in our troop, I don't know how disgusted I would have to be to actually suggest that the troop shouldn't help--perhaps I would swallow my annoyance and not do anything. I don't think I would be able to resist saying something fairly pointed to him, though.

 

As for the debate over what Scout Spirit is, whether you accept Beavah's argument or FScouter's, it's obvious that it's pretty subjective. It can't be measured like the number of merit badges. The SM who has to sign it off ultimately has to make the decision of whether he feels that the boy's attitude and behavior meets the standard as the SM sees it. If he's not comfortable signing, the boy can appeal and get a BOR, but it would be a more difficult and unpleasant process for him. Perhaps since the boy hasn't been around for a year, the SM should explain to him explicitly what will drive his decision whether to sign off that requirement.

[Oak Tree 15]

OGE, I'm not sure if you're posting your protestant work ethic question with your tongue in cheek, or not, but this is just a random example of a potential difference in attitude by COs.

 

If I google "protestant work ethic" I get 155,000 hits. If I google "catholic work ethic" I get 142 hits. Protestant work ethic even has its own wikipedia entry. It was one of the theological underpinnings of the Puritans, and has entered the American mythology and lexicon. Using that term is just part of the standard cultural literacy.

 

I know of no evidence to show that protestants are actually harder workers than anyone else today, but I agree with the idea that different COs will have different philosophies about the importance of different parts of the Scout Oath and Law.

 

And nowhere did I see Beavah state that units could redefine the Scout Oath and Law. But it seems 100% obvious to me that everyone has to interpret what those words really mean, and that they'll mean somewhat different things to different people.

 

Oak Tree

[SemperParatus 1]

Mother Teresa had a great Protestant work ethic.

[Eamonn 61]

Pope John Paul II wasn't what you might call a slacker!!

Eamonn.

 

[Beavah 205]

Yah, I'm not qualified in Catholic theology eh? It's just an example.

 

A colleague in a nearby council who is a COR for a Catholic parish explains it that they care much less than I typically do about "a Scout pays his own way." The emphasis is more on the Church/"community of God"'s role of service than the individual's role of work. "Each gives according to his ability and should take freely according to his need." He quotes from Vatican II documents, but I might say more salvation by Church than by personal conscience . Catholics never had much truck with John Calvin.

 

A good example is that tuition for Catholic elementary schools never reflects a boy/family paying their own way. They're all heavily subsidized by the parish collection plate. So no surprise if they have that attitude toward the Scouting programs they run, eh?

 

But the point is, again, that the goals of the CO are what counts in the BSA system. And the CO that uses the Scout Oath and Law as part of its youth program gets to interpret those words accordin' to their own lights. What it means to be "mentally awake" to a Catholic and a Fundamentalist are goin' to be different, eh? The rules of Courtesy are somewhat different in arabic/Islam (no left-handed Scout Handshakes, eh?). And on and on. We as Commissioners and BSA representatives don't get to tell everyone that we have a lock on what "good character" means. The opposite. They tell us what good character means, and we tell them how Scouting can be used to help.

 

So if you're in the BSA, and you've got a serious question about aims/goals/character/Scout Spirit, you should talk to your CO, eh?(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Gonzo1 10]

As far as Scout Spirit goes, what do you SM's out there do when it comes time to "sign off" on Scout Spirit if the patrols don't have flags, yells, or calls? Is it just in the requirements list to take up space? It seems to me that's part of Scout Spirit. Wearing the uniform, giving the yell, having the flag, as well as living the Scout Oath and Law.

 

I asked a den chief recently what his patrol yell was, he's in the Flaming Arrow patrol and a Star scout. He said he didn't have one. I asked him if his patrol had a flag, he said no. I asked him who signs off on Scout Spirit, he said the SM, he just signs it. That somehow doesn't seem right.

 

Gonzo

[Hunt 11]

"As far as Scout Spirit goes, what do you SM's out there do when it comes time to "sign off" on Scout Spirit if the patrols don't have flags, yells, or calls? Is it just in the requirements list to take up space? It seems to me that's part of Scout Spirit. Wearing the uniform, giving the yell, having the flag, as well as living the Scout Oath and Law."

 

While I think these things are good and show a kind of spirit (or esprit), I don't think they are part of Scout Spirit for purposes of advancement--that is defined as living the Oath and Law in the Scout's daily life. I see nothing wrong with a SM or BOR questioning a boy about these items, but I think to require them in order to pass Scout Spirit would be adding requirements. On further thought, I think the way a SM who highly values these expressions of esprit should handle it is when discussing POR responsibilities with a new patrol leader.

[Gonzo1 10]

Hunt,

I could be mistaken, but I think REquirement #8 for Tenderfoot says "Know your patrol name, give the patrol yell, and describe your patrol flag."

 

 

Second Class, First Class, Star, Life and Eagle requirements include: Demonstrate scout spirit by living the Scout Oath (Promise) and Scout Law in your everyday life.

 

Hmmm.

 

 

 

 

[Hunt 11]

Yes, the Tenderfoot rank requires knowing the patrol yell, flag, etc. But even that rank has a separate Scout Spirit requirement, so Scout Spirit is something else. I'm not arguing about whether a patrol should have a yell and a flag--I'm just saying that it's not part of Scout Spirit, it's something else, and I maintain it has more to do with how the patrol leader understands his duties.

[Lisabob 13]

In addition to the PL's understanding and ability to carry out his duties I'd say the lack of a patrol yell/flag/name indicates a failure on the part of the SM to teach the PLs about their positions, say at the troop's youth leader training sessions. We might also fault the SM for signing off on tenderfoot requirements that haven't been fulfilled (boy, and this sets a terrible tone for the way young scouts view advancement - on their very first rank they're "sliding" through on basic, simple, fun requirements. How will they respond later then, when they face more difficult requirements? Doesn't this lead to the attitude that advancement is all about checking off boxes and doing the bare minimum necessary to get signatures?), and the BOR members for agreeing to advance boys to tenderfoot if they have not done these things. But it does seem somehow a bit wrong to lay all the blame at the scouts' feet for lacking scout spirit if they have been let down in these ways by the adults to start with.

[Gonzo1 10]

I agree LisaBob that SM's and BOR should not be letting the scouts slide through.

 

I think another way, beside troop level training is to encourage Scout Spirit at Camp-o-ree's.

For example, when I was asked to judge a station at a camp-o-ree, I wasn't given a score sheet, so I made one. I included casic info lke Patrol Name, Troop number, station. Points were also given for scouts in uniform, patrol has patrol flag with them, patrol gives patrol yell. They didn't get the points if they didn't have it.

 

Just a thought.

 

[NeilLup 13]

You've received some great advice. I do have a couple of thoughts:

 

1) The tenure and leadership requirements need to be met while the boy is a Life Scout. They do NOT need to be met in the time immediately before he meets the Board of Review. If he met those requirements while he is a Life Scout, then the requirements are met even if he was less active for a substantial period of time.

2) It is his job to convince you and the Board of Review that he has met the Scout Spirit requirements. It is not your job to prove that he didn't meet them. It is very appropriate for you to outline for him what he needs to do to meet the Scout Spirit requirements the "easy way." However, I believe that you then need to tell him that if he chooses not to be active in the unit and display his Scout Spirit in that way, then he will need to convince you and the Board of Review that he is displaying Eagle Scout level Scout Spirit elsewhere in his life.

 

As with all such conversations, it is important that there be no surprises and you are well on your way to that having no surprises. If you and the Scout reach an agreement on what is expected, I would suggest that you (or he) write it up and you both sign it. If you don't reach an agreement, I would suggest that you and the Committee Chairman write up what you told him about expectations and hand or send him a copy with a copy to his parents.

 

He doesn't get a free pass on the requirements. But he should be able to chart his own path in how to meet the requirements.

[John-in-KC 311]

Hmmmm....

 

BSA Requirements (33215F) for 2006:

 

Tenderfoot:

Requirement 7: Repeat from memory and explain in your own words the Scout Oath, Law, motto, and slogan.

 

Requirement 8: Know your patrol name, give the patrol yell, and describe your patrol flag.

 

Requirement 13: Demonstrate scout spirit by living the Scout Oath (Promise) and Scout Law in your everyday life.

 

Second Class:

Requirement 9: Demonstrate scout spirit by living the Scout Oath (Promise) and Scout Law in your everyday life.

 

First Class:

Requirement 10: Demonstrate scout spirit by living the Scout Oath (Promise) and Scout Law in your everyday life.

 

Star:

Requirement 2: Demonstrate scout spirit by living the Scout Oath (Promise) and Scout Law in your everyday life.

 

Life:

Requirement 2: Demonstrate Scout spirit by living the Scout Oath (Promise) and Scout Law in your everyday life.

 

Eagle:

Requirement 2: Demonstrate Scout spirit by living the Scout Oath (Promise) and Scout Law in your everyday life.

 

This isn't about Plebe Knowledge at the US Military Academy!!!

"How is the cow?"

"Sir, she walks, she talks, she's full of chalk, the lacteal fluid extracted from the female of the bovine species is highly prolific to the nth degree."

 

This is about meeting the Character Development AIM of Scouting using the Methods of:

Advancement

Associations With Adults

Personal Growth

Leadership Development

 

Scout spirit, as set in the requirements, supports especially Personal Growth and Leadership Development. We are teaching, at no less than the analytical level of knowledge, black and white values and mores. We evaluate their growth by seeking the deeper and the substantive, not mere memorization. "To do my duty ... and my Country" for a 13 year old may as simple as picking up litter in a Troop service project. For an 18 year old venturer or transitioning adult, it means registering for the draft and to vote! (Post Scriptum: I omitted "to God" for the sake of this particular example only. There's a missive about Scout Spirit in the life of the Church that's waiting to be written!).

 

I don't usually like to refer to doctrine Mother Army wrote when discussing issues of Scouting. This time I shall. I remember my first paper for Senior Leadership at the Command and General Staff Officer Course after earning my scrambled eggs. I had to write on the attributes of a senior leader (standard bearer, developer, and integrator) as defined in FM 22-103 (1987). As I recall, my argument was the developmental and integration atrributes of a senior leader's vision were vital to the future, for our job was to raise up the generation behind us. Contrast those two with the atribute of standard bearer, which was to maintain the organization in the here and now.

 

Our legacy as Scouters is not maintenance of traditions. Traditions are tools in the toolbox, no more, no less. Our legacies are the quality young men and women who step out of Scouting and into adulthood.

 

Of course, I am just a simple Artilleryman.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[Gonzo1 10]

Artillery? That explains it! (wink)

John-in-KC, please send me a PM with you email address.

v/r

Gonzo1

[Kudu 186]

Just to view this situation from a different perspective, Scouting was invented by a guy named Baden-Powell and his version of Scouting is a GAME!

 

Baden-Powell didn't require any adult-judgement "Scoutmaster Conferences" for advancement.

 

Baden-Powell didn't require any adult-judgement "Boards of Review" for advancement.

 

Baden-Powell didn't require any adult-judgement "Scout Spirit" requirements for advancement.

 

Baden-Powell didn't even use the term "advancement." He called it "progressive training in Scoutcraft." Scoutcraft. You know, camping stuff.

 

Baden-Powell had 30 years to fine-tune the game he invented, and he believed that a Scout earns these progressive "Awards" by demonstrating his mastery of Scoutcraft.

 

Oh, and that is "Awards," not "Ranks." In Baden-Powell's version of Scouting a boy or man's "rank" is his leadership position and

 

Baden-Powell did not require leadership positions for "advancement."

 

Baden-Powell did not even have Aims called "Character" and "Fitness."

 

In B-P's model of Scouting, Character and Fitness are the broad methods through which Citizenship (the single aim of Scouting) is achieved.

 

Since Eagle is the culmination of the Scouting experience, has he reached any of the Aims of Scouting? Physical Fitness, Character Development and Participating Citizenship. Has he engaged all of the Methods of Scouting?

 

Just was suggestin' you chat with your CO and find out if they thought that this young man and his "get Eagle" approach met their goals and aims; their view of character and citizenship.

 

Yeah these are valid tests alright, but not of the Scout. Anyone who paid attention when they last staffed BSA basic training can tell you that the BSA's so-called "Three Aims of Scouting" are the adult guide by which we apply the adult "Eight Methods of Scouting." Therefore, like the purpose of a BOR to which we pay lip service (an evaluation of the program, not the Scout), a Scout's character, fitness, and citizenship are an indication of how well the adults in his Troop applied the BSA's Methods of Scouting to the CO's program. Judge not lest ye be judged. If the adult leaders have failed at these indirect means along the way then this Scout's "Spirit" is a reflection on them, not the Scout, and should be the inspiration for self-examination on the part of the adults.

 

Indeed, some of the ideas expressed in this thread are downright creepy, and I can't see how such Scouters have the moral standing from which to present themselves to this Scout as an example of the Spirit of Scouting. "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?"

 

The BSA does not even specify that the Scout's Spirit must be measured by we flawed adults. Those who judge this Scout (a bright but shy 15 year-old that has met every objective requirement--except his project for Eagle--including a leadership position) harshly because he has played by the rules but considers himself now done with the game of Scouting should take a page from Baden-Powell's Second Class requirement in which the Scoutmaster meets with the Scout to make sure he understands the meaning of Scout Law rather than trying to judge how well the Scout applies this understanding in his daily life.

 

As Venividi suggests:

 

Sounds like you will be wanting to have additional conversations about what you expect to see with respect to scout spirit; and give him the opportunity to describe how he has demonstrated the rest of the points of the scout law. For example, how does he see how he shows loyalty to his troop and patrol.... Perhaps he was very loyal to his patrol when he was active.... Perhaps there are other groups/organizations to whom he is showing loyalty now.

 

To this end consider using the "Scout Spirit Scavenger Hunt" which provides a vehicle by which the Scout can put his reflections on his behavior into writing and judge for himself how well he lives the Scout Law in his daily life. See:

 

http://www.inquiry.net/ideals/spirit/index.htm

 

Kudu