Scout Spirit - Here we go again

[SemperParatus 1]

If these are the five hangups that you have identified, then your next step should be determining how he may demonstrate trustworthiness, loyalty, helpfulness, friendliness, and kindness in the other 99% of the hours making up his life.

 

Clearly, the term 'everyday life' is intended to connote a far wider lens than just scouting. I get the sense you may be extrapolating the scouting issues you have identified to the rest of his life, without a full consideration of his 'everyday life'.

 

Welcome to the forum. Hope you stick around a while.

 

[Venividi 35]

>>Scouting is not in your everyday life!

[Good Ole Buff 10]

Thanks to you for the reply. I guess I do get a little hung up and I agree that it should be a far wider lens. I have been trying to take that view more and more and convince the hard cases in my Troop of the same. Scouting is a small part of the whole, as you have said probably 1% or less. On the other hand I have a hard time extrapolating the benefits of the Scout Law in his everyday life without a full consideration of it in his Scouting life especially when BSAs own definitions cover both. Does his everyday life take president over Scouting because he spends most of his time outside of Troop & Patrol activities? There is an argument there that I can see and appreciate but I think you get into trouble when we place percentages on them that BSA has not put in there. They dont say his everyday life meaning Scouting is such a small percentage that what he does there is inconsequential and is outweighed by his outside activities. Outside should weigh more, but at the total expense of Scouting? I will continue to talk to this young man and his family and encourage him.

 

You all have been very helpful and I appreciate your advice. I have read the forum for a long time and am glad I took the plung.

 

[Beavah 205]

I think you've got the right idea, Buff, even if yeh are a big furry cow and not a smart, good-lookin' critter that does structural engineerin' on rivers (go Beavahs!)

 

In keepin' with the "authority" threads, though, "What does your Chartered Organization think?" The reason the BSA doesn't define the oath and law much is that it's a support organization whose job it is to help the CO/unit in their version of character development. Always remember you work for your CO, not da BSA (or the parents or the kids).

 

So I'd suggest you sit down with the pastor/VFW president/PTO president and ask what s/he thinks is the important lessons of character that the scouting program should convey in the oath and law. What do they want to see in kids as they grow and get recognized for higher rank? And then work to do that in your program and who you advance to Eagle.

 

That's where your Loyal duty lies, eh?

 

And remember, too, when an EBOR considers Scout Spirit, they're lookin' for recommendations from home, school, church, work, etc. - the other pieces of a boy's everyday life. In the scheme of things, they're lookin' to the SM to report honestly on Scout Spirit from the boy's Scouting life.(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[evmori 11]

While I agree with those who state "Scouting is your everyday life" I'm not a big fan of Scouts coming back after an extended absence to "get" his Eagle. No one should "get" his Eagle. It should be earned.

 

I would do a little checking with friends & teachers & people in the community about this Scout before I had a sit down with him regarding his "earning" his Eagle. And if he refuses to discuss it with you, end of story.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Fuzzy Bear 12]

This appears to be a problem in measurement. Does this Scouts height equal that which I (the leader) perceive to be that of an Eagle? I posit that if he has reached the Aims and if he has used the Methods to get there, then he has met the initial goal. One past and most straightforward poster was fond of saying that if the Scout meets the requirements, then he has the badge. I dont agree with the idea of the CO determining if the Scout meets some other criteria simply because it may not match anything Scouting. It appears that you have identified other criteria that you believe to be important, so counseling with the Scout is the only route. I doubt that he will have time to reach the goals but then it may be that he will profit from your instruction. fb

[Good Ole Buff 10]

Hairy cow? You must be confusing this stately, beautiful animal with something else! The buffalo is a proud, noble beast. The mere mention of the name congers up thoughts of the vast and wild American west, majestic power, and thundering hooves. The lowly beaver, on the other hand, was chosen to represent..well, give me a minute and Im sure I can think of something appropriate. They made great hats at one time I understand. :-)

 

Seriously, I appreciate your comments. I have always had a bit of a problem with kids that have come back at the last minute to complete their Eagle because they finally realize that it will mean something in their life down the road. But I was able to get over those initial feelings and help those young men because they had been very active in Scouting from a very young age, completed all their requirements as stated by BSA and I knew they had Scout Spirit in their lives. This young man wants the benefits but could really care less about Scouting as a whole and has actually said hell be glad when he gets his Eagle because hell be out of here. We have a very active, boy run program of about 60 Scouts that has produced 18 Eagle Scouts in the last four years. Eagle Scouts that tend to stay involved in the program. Its not unusual to have 7 or 8 of these young men come home from college and join us on campouts still so maybe I have become a little spoiled. I know it's not fair to judge him by them. Everyone is an individual and I think he will probably come to appreciate it later on but we dont possess a crystal ball and Im still having a hard time with his attitude in the here and now.

 

Ill keep giving this kid positive pressure. I just needed a way to vent and get other views. Thanks!

 

[Hunt 11]

This is different from the boy who did everything but his project at age 15, got busy with other activities, and then came back to finish. I, too, think it's appropriate to help such a boy finish--heck, if he's already almost 18, he's probably doing it because he just feels he's left something important undone, because he's already applied to college. I think it's fine to help such a boy, as long as the demands on the troop aren't unreasonable.

But this situation is different. This boy is 15, and has made it clear that he will check out when his project is done, and he's not really participating well. Here's what I would tell him: "Billy, I think you should be aware that it's very difficult to get boys in the troop to help on an Eagle project for a scout who isn't pulling his weight in the troop. I would really hate for you to schedule work days and have nobody show up..." I might even let some of the other scouts overhear this advice.

[SemperParatus 1]

"I might even let some of the other scouts overhear this advice."

 

I see no purpose in that. Why in the world would a scout leader intentionally try to sabotage a scout's recruitment for his project?

 

[Venividi 35]

Hunt,

I know this was a hypothetical response, and hypothetcial responses can go places not intended, but I also have difficulty with the potential response of:

 

"Billy, I think you should be aware that it's very difficult to get boys in the troop to help on an Eagle project for a scout who isn't pulling his weight in the troop. I would really hate for you to schedule work days and have nobody show up..."

 

In addition to Semper's observation, I would add: 1)I don't see such a response from a scoutmaster as being completely honest. It is not the ability to recruit workers that is the issue, it is the scout's unwillingness to show scout spirit. 2) It is a rare kid that wouldn't be able to find a few friends and family members to help on his project. So when it is completed, the SM has herself/himself into a corner.

 

That said, I think I know what you were trying to get at: suggesting that in a conference it may help to provide some examples of how his attitude will directly affect him. Am I right?

 

 

[Hunt 11]

"I see no purpose in that. Why in the world would a scout leader intentionally try to sabotage a scout's recruitment for his project?"

 

While I would hope that this advice would motivate him to rethink his attitude, I wouldn't feel wrong in declining to encourage the troop to do much to help him, because in my opinion this scout has forfeited the right to expect the other scouts to help him. He's made it clear he won't be around to help them, he's not pulling his weight as a member of the troop, and he doesn't value participation with them. I realize this is harsh, but working on an Eagle project can be a lot of work, and a major sacrifice of time. Last week my son and I spent five hours on a Saturday working (well, he was working) on another Scout's project. The troop also rescheduled a campout so a project could get done on time. Would we have done that for a boy who didn't participate and was just coming back to get his Eagle, and then was "out of here?" Only if he had built up a lot of good will with us while he was active.

[Good Ole Buff 10]

I agree that it would be difficult to get people in the Troop to help at an Eagle project if they dont know who you are and that could be an incentive but he wasnt planning on really inviting the Troop to help anyway. He knows he isnt required to have Scout help so he was going to rustle it up somewhere else. I told him it was his project and it is his right to do that but we have chewed a lot of the same dirt together and we feel like we have a lot of time and interest invested in helping him do the best he can. We want to be there to support him (and to make sure the project goes well). I talked to him about the hundreds of man hours (adults and boys) of teaching and support we have invested so he could have the opportunity to make this achievement in his life possible. I didnt think a little of the guilt card would hurt either. Mia coupa. I think he was responsive to at least considering the idea.

 

We are going to talk again next week. He is a pretty hard nut but so are most teenagers (at least mine are). I just wanted to know how his thoughts and actions were addressed by Scout Spirit and must admit Im still a little confused.

 

[Beavah 205]

I dont agree with the idea of the CO determining if the Scout meets some other criteria simply because it may not match anything Scouting.

 

Nah, not some other criteria, Fuzzy. An LDS ward may have a view about "duty to God", though, and what it means. A VFW post may have some strong feelin's about "duty to country." The Catholic units have a different understandin' of Thrifty than some of the work-ethic Protestants, eh? The CO gets to interpret the meaning and priority of the elements of the Oath and Law, and thereby define what it means in their unit to have Scout Spirit.

 

Didn't mean to confuse yeh, Buff. Just was suggestin' you chat with your CO and find out if they thought that this young man and his "get Eagle" approach met their goals and aims; their view of character and citizenship. What they wanted to hold up to the other boys and their members as the example of a successful scout in their program. I suspect that they're likely to back you up in your "gut feelin", eh? If so that matters a lot more than all us internet kibbitzers.

 

 

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Dont you just hate it when someone pounces on a phrase and starts a row? Then you will most likley not like the following:

 

Beavah, you said "The Catholic units have a different understandin' of Thrifty than some of the work-ethic Protestants, eh?"

 

So Catholics do not have as strong a work ethics as protestants? I certainly dont think thats what you were trying to say, so I look forward to a clarifying statement

[FScouter 24]

It sounds like he's continuing to advocate his thought from the last several days over several threads that units have a right to toss out whatever BSA program parts and do their own "thing". In this instance, to redefine the meaning of the Scout Oath and Law, if it's convenient to do so.