Dedicated Dad

Shemgren am with Central Minnesota Council. My reason for asking is that I saw the St Louis Area council had a write-up on the new Tiger Cub totem program and coincidentally that was my old council. I thought there might have been a connection. Anyway, I think its a great idea to make them yourself. I looked on the Tandy leather site, per your suggestion, and found the tools one would need to make the leather tabs. Brad I thought you might be interested. This is the tool I think you would use to punch the belt holes. oblong punch shemgren would you concur that this is the right tool for that? In addition to oblong punch you would need a hole punch for the two leather thongs. hole punch and heavy duty shears to cut the rectangular tabs. shears . I would use a heavy-duty hide, maybe 7-8 oz. 1/8. hide . And dont forget to stamp your tab with BSA and your troop number, of course you may have your own design for the tab.stamps Anyway, I dont think any of this is etched in stone. I had some free time to window shop/look at the Tandy site, just thought you might be interested in some quick links. Ours totems were supplied to us, I think it would have been a fun project to earn with your Scout rank. Good luck!

Ive written the administrator a couple of times about coolscout101without any success. Obviously he is a troll and a disrupter, I would encourage everyone to write to admin@scouter.com and let them know how you feel. BTW, there is no need to engage him, he isnt interested in anything but being subversive. It looks like his mommy doesnt know hes using the Internet.

A Predilection for Success As a compass keeps a hiker going in the right direction, Scouting's values put young people on the right path. For over 90 years, Scouting has provided an "internal compass" guiding millions of young people throughout their lives. For every 100 boys who join a Boy Scout troop: 1. Twelve will have their first contact with a church or synagogue. 2. Five will earn their religious emblem. 3. Three will enter the clergy or a religious vocation. 4. Eighteen will develop hobbies that will last through their adult life. 5. Eight will enter a career that was learned through the merit badge system. 6. One will use his Scout skills to save the life of another. 7. Two will use their Scout skills to save their own life. 8. Twenty-one will become adult Scouting volunteers. 9. Three will become Eagle Scouts. These statistics were found at meritbadge.com and I thought they were interesting enough to share. I find it difficult to believe that only 3% of all scouts become Eagle, I would have guessed it to be at least 10-15%.

Shemgren Thank you for your return. To this day, Ive been under the impression that we were the only troop with such a tradition, though its not a shock to think we werent alone. I do have a few questions, was your totem worn on the belt, did yours include outing/campout beads (fifty miler canoe trips and 20 mile pack trips were among some of the elite and most sought after beads), was your totem in anyway connected with the St. Louis Area Council? the Scoutmaster presented me with my last bead which was bird shaped in red, white and blue. I think that, in its self, it is a tribute to the to the icing on the cake, I can only imagine the pride one must have wearing it. In addition, there were attendance beads that could traded up. White bead for one meeting, silver beads for 8, gold for 20 and a multicolored bead for a full year. I think attendance and rank beads are a great idea and trading up the attendance beads certainly wont make the length overly long. I hope you can convince the new scoutmaster to continue the tradition, it may be a little labor intensive, but I cant think of a better or a more unique record of ones BSA experiences.

Is everyone worn out over this one, I know I am? I dont know any other subject in America today that provokes the kind of passion that this does. Eisely, I take to heart you input, your opinions are always fair and balanced. Youre correct to characterize my diction as vehement; my words are carefully chosen and meant to shakeout the cobwebs of apathy. I would take issue with your comparison to a pretend word like homophobia, I believe we could have rather lengthy discussion about whether words are factual and undistorted and constitute name-calling or whether words, like gay, are deceptions of the truth. Regardless, Im pretty sure we can agree that if I were to choose my words differently, you and others are still going to continue to use words, like gay, that soft-peddle the baseness hidden within their meanings. Those offended by my clinical use of certain words are not fence sitters and I believe no amount of agreeable dialog will sway their opinion to the truth, it is however, the real fence sitters that I hope to influence with a certain kind of truth in advertising approach. Nevertheless, after its all said and done, after the frank debate that OGE prescribed in the preface, Id like think that we can at least agree to disagree and still work together to further this great institution we all know and love. In that spirit, I hope we can put this matter aside and to all I humbly and sincerely ask your forgiveness for my position on this subject.

ArbitrarilyEnumeratedMachoFowl I extend to you, one free token for comment without any retribution to your self imposed exile.

OGE With all due and great respect to you I thank you for your heart felt well thought out post. In this great country of ours, we are all responsible as citizens to lead and sustain a civilized society that is in the best interests of man, woman and child. The selfishness of Liberaltarianism, cloaked in liberty, leads us down a path of repugnance and baseness that is contrary to the intent of our founding fathers. As to your mixed metaphors, they all speak to the difference between innate condition and behavior. our country views slavery as the highest perversion of human/civil rights. take away a persons right to vote based on sex American Citizens had their property seized and were herded into interment camps based purely on ethnic background. women were seen as perverted All of your points affirm the wrongs committed by our country, however they are not equal or fair comparisons to behavioral choices because race, creed, color and gender are not a chosen behavior where as homosexuality is. I know you think differently, but is that because to choose not to investigate the science or that you see no evil, speak no evil or hear no evil, sorry no dig intended? If you believe any of the highly reported Hammer, LeVay or twins studies that erroneously endorsed homosexuality as innate condition but then underreported for their bias and the ability to be re-created under similar conditions, you are just another sheeple in the hand of propaganda. Youre welcome to get out your scientific studies and Ill get out mine, so we can debate the legitimacy of being born that way or being a chosen behavior. As you pointed out, perversion, usually sexual, is a deviation from the norm. That is the usual tactic of the uninformed, but I have never said that or implied it. Deviating from the norm is part of what made this country great, but deviating from what is intrinsically right or wrong will overtly be seen for its truth and sobriety. But who gets to establish the norm? The majority? No, the essential virtues of right and wrong establish the healthy well being of our society. I have seen postings that say its simple to tell homosexuality is a perversion because its against nature. Not from me. But for the record, part of the definition of perversion is, see previous post, homosexuality. As I view nature I only see one creature that disrupts nature as much as man. We change the course of rivers. Because no other creature has this ability then can humans in total be considered a perversion? Of course not, we as the highest order of beings seek to strengthen our environment for the betterment of society. To analogize it with perversion is specious and arbitrary. Its in our nature to choose our destinies, free will and all that. What I object most to is the use of the word perversion to label an activity that we dont comprehend. Speak for yourself, the act is repugnant to that which is good, right and true, should you choose to investigate the validity of its definition, as it pertains to homosexuality, you may see the truth. In a country where personal freedom is sacred I dont see any other choice. Homosexuals are free to their pursuit of happiness As well they are, but they dont deserve any special rights for their behavior as that would make them more equal than all of us. We as Scouters need to have the capacity to distinguish between right and wrong behavior and it is our obligation to separate ourselves from others irresponsible conduct. I do think this may be accomplished without using terms like perversion, amoral, ect. And it is here, in your last comment, I believe we find the crust of your concern. You label my clinical use of the word perversion, as name-calling, and weve wasted a lot of ink to get to this point. Shall we soft peddle certain wrong behaviors with words like gay and transgendered or is it best to accurately define said behaviors so they can be seen for what they are? It is the act by which they define themselves, I believe its our duty to bring to light filth and degradation so that it can seen for the depravity that it is. I will have you know that in a similar debate with a homosexual former Eagle Scout, he readily admits that his behavior is perversion by definition, and though his testimony is anecdotal it serves as a bellwether to measure others. You chose not to answer whether or not perversion is good, right and true and I believe the reason you didnt is because you cant, in good conscience, call the act of debauchery anything more than what it is. I would like to be the side that takes the high moral road, stands up for our decisions and their consequences and does not name call or label. And Nero fiddled while Rome burned.

The simple fact you would suggest such a thing is enough to make one pause and wonder about your intentions. Im glad it got your attention and I apologize to you or anyone who is offended, but I am seeking to demonstrate a greater point about independent or self defined morality, a point you and others have proffered without much objection. One can justify incest, sexual behavior and/or idolatry in terms of being right or wrong no differently than homosexuality, they are all morally equivalent if one has his/her own morality system. If you find incest to be putrid, then you must find homosexuality to be equally as putrid because they are one in the same morally. I would suggest that you, and others, have tolerance for one and not the other and it is this underlying message that radiates from your postings. You questioned my intentions and here they are, in this particular matter, I intend to expose the fallacy that tolerance of homosexuality in the Scouts is compatible with the Oath and Laws, I intend to debate the issue openly and honestly because it should be seen for the depravity that it is, and it is my hope that those on the fence may realize the consequences of their silence and ambivalence should this iniquity take root in our beloved organization.

While that ruling may very well be a result of the definition, "morally straight" certainly wasn't inserted into the Scout Oath to mean "not gay". First you said not homosexual and but you meant not glad and happy? I would agree that part of the being morally straight means being cheerful, but I think thats not your what you are trying to convey.

Yes, morality is defined by us as individuals and by our religious beliefsDear Abby, Given my upbringing, my morality system says I should hook up with my mother on my eighteenth birthday and yet my god, Isis, advocates that my older sister would be a better choice. Which is more morally straight? Sincerely, Disguised Trousers

I don't believe any of us truly believe that the words "morally straight" were included in the Scout Oath to mean "not homosexual". Umm.That would be the Supreme Court.

ArbitrarilyEnumeratedMachoFowlI too was thrown off by your stealth humor, glad to see you havent swallowed the Kool-Aid of political correctness. You are correct about PETA though, they wish to equalize man and beast.

Im not sure if this counts as a tradition or not but we kept track of our outings by means of a Campers Totem. Its a belt totem much like this tiger cub one only with two leather thongs to hold the beads and made of plain leather. Each bead represented a different campout/outing. If I recall correctly, black was for rain, white for snow, blue for mild weather, round for summer camp etc. I seem to recollect our scout master, through his business, manufactured them for our troop. I dont know if this was something he invented or copied from another troop, but I do remember we were the only troop who wore them at summer camp and jamborees we attended and we were constantly asked about them. For all I know they are standard issue and commonplace now. I still have mine, furthermore I can remember receiving some of the special occasion beads. We had an unusually shaped bead for a two-week canoe portage through Canada, its fun trying to remember all the rest. Anyway, has anyone else seen or done this?

that full tolerance has been achieved when there are religious awards for WiccanIm pretty darn sure this was tongue in cheek, if not, we need to talk. Satin worship and idolatry would be a logical next step should the BSA recognize paganism.

Are you saying that Buddist, Hindu and Bha'i boy scouts which may earn religious medals as are not really endorsed and supported by BSA? Of course not. In fact, these particular religions and the Religious Emblems Program were the incentive for my post previous. It would appear that there is some ambiguity in the Oath as it pertains to the eastern religions, perhaps a good topic for another thread? BTW I find it interesting, depending on the religion, all scouts are eligible to earn any or all of the emblems in the program, this must make it a secular curriculum?

Rooster7, vizoere For the record, I agree with vizoere - "The BSA isn't affiliated with one specific religion, though it is a somewhat religious organization. For the record, I was thinking in terms of duty to God which was one of Lord Baden-Powells contributions as author to the Oath. And, before I go any further, I am unequivocally open to and endorse all legitimate religions (less the pagan and cult religions) involvement in the BSA. Lord Baden-Powell refers to God in his book, AIDS TO SCOUTMASTERSHIP, as God the Creator through His wondrous work, which when coupled with active performance of His will in service for others constitutes the concrete foundation of religion, and then further describes a Good Turn as Christian Charity. It would seem that through our Oath and Laws, given the original intent of the author, the BSA does indirectly affiliate itself with the God of Abraham.

Excellent outing, I believe these skills are a great example of how Scouting can teach those willing and interested how to be responsible for the game taken when hunting (i.e. one objective for the rifle and shotgun merit badges) and as well as the self-sufficiency of our ancestors. One meeting we paid (reasonably) a local fishmonger to bring in enough catch to teach the troop how to clean and fillet for the fishing merit badge, many of the adult leaders participated as well. It turned into a great dining event with a variety of home recipes, and the fishmonger made many new customers.

sctmom but what you do in private with a consenting adult is personal I was really hoping this thread wouldnt take the standard selfish Liberaltarian direction but lets start with a simple concept. By your standard, is incest morally straight if practiced by consenting adults? If not, why?

What I dont understand is the use of the word "perversion". Its a fair and reasonable description of the psychosocial and learned behavior of homosexuality. To your other points, I believe that certain actions are intrinsically right or wrong and need not be scheduled on a list of what is or isnt morally straight. Less most felony convictions, I believe that what is in ones past is not of consequence as long as he/she is no longer an advocate of and is repentant to that wrong behavior in the present. If someone was a homosexual, adulterer, alcoholic, drug user, compulsive gambler, etc. but no longer practices or supports such behavior Id have no problem with their participation.

Chief Decorah Then to have Dedicated Dad come in referring to Experienced Hoary Raptors and asking questions likeFirst of all, ExperiencedHoaryRaptor is and was a benevolent way of saying OldGreyEagle and was meant in good spirit as a nick name, much the same way GWB nicknames all of his friends. Experienced = a kind way of saying old. Hoary = a kind way of saying grey. Though I suspect you may have accidentally inserted a W in front of it. Raptor = a respectful analogy of the greatest bird of prey. offering one word posts that link up with the definition of the word perversion? That would be to substantiate/verify my definition as that may have been challenged previously. (Do you really think that the author of the Scout Oath had homosexuality in mind when he wrote it?) That was a question at the heart of the Supreme Court trial, I think it has merit to the TOPIC of the thread. The Scout Law and living a decent life and caring for, and about, others is what being morally straight is to me. Though you may not accept my point of view, I do care for all individuals, regardless of their iniquities. It seems that youre watching the parade a couple blocks behind.

vizoere True, anyone can create a "religion" with whatever beliefs they like. Umm, I never mentioned religion."What gives any one of us the right to judge that what someone does is morally straight or not?" That would be the BSA.The BSA isn't affiliated with one specific religion, though it is a somewhat religious organization.I think, but Im not sure, that would be the God of Abraham.

P Swigs Either add something useful to the thread or kindly refrain from typing anything. Kindly be specific of what constitutes anything. I believe this thread was/is based on a comment I made to OGE on another thread. So far you have reprimanded both OGE and me without offering insight to the matter at hand. What you're asking is about as stupid a comment as anything I've seen in this forum. Thank you for your insightful and pithy argument, I hope others comments can withstand your test of appropriateness. Because of commentary from you and other people like you, I believe this entire forum is on the verge of being cast aside and forgotten by the majority of Scouters who come here for it's original intent - to exchange creative ideas for our Boy Scout Troops and Cub Scout Packs and to have constructive conversation, not to put up with ludicrous statements like yours. WOW, I thought this was the Politics and Issues forum. Thank you for your acknowledgement that there are other people like me because we are all in the same organization you are. If you would kindly point out my ludicrous statement, maybe we could have a beneficial dialog to others, but without that specificity your comments are only illegitimate and inflammatory. Either grow up and become a responsible Scouter or get out! I am an adult leader in this great institution and I have every right to be here as much as you do. Your thoughts, however, are noted. Perhaps your aversion to the camo thread and this one are your way of saying only your opinion is relevant.

From what I know about BSA v. Dale is that it was argued that the author of the Oath didnt have Homosexuality in mind as NOT being Morally Straight, and perhaps the thought never crossed his mind. I would ask anyone here if they would think the author, if asked specifically is Homosexuality Morally Straight, would he answer yes or no?

perversion

ExperiencedHoaryRaptor Are you with the Boston Minutemen Council, just wondering?