DanKroh

Thanks for the Boston plug, CalicoPenn. You should get a job with the local tourism board! The one I immediately thought of if you are willing to travel up to this area is the Battleship Massachusetts in Fall River. It is a decommissioned battleship turned into educational museum. However, the really cool thing is that the scouts can sleep overnight on the ship, in what my back agrees are the original bunks used by the sailors. There is also a Russian submarine and a PT boat in the harbor, which I believe can also accomodate sleepovers for smaller groups. Within walking distanc

Well, since we've had, by my count, four threads so far with articles condemning the Philadelphia City Council, I thought it would be nice to throw one in that shows the other side of the coin. Just to be fair and balanced. A bit heavy on the sarcasm and overly harsh for my tastes, but the writer does bring up some valid points. http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/news/local/15169030.htm Ronnie Polaneczky | Boy Scouts in a jam - this calls for a merit badge! I THINK THE Boy Scout's Cradle of Liberty Council needs a new merit badge: the Weasel Badge! It would be awarded

"Start a similar group that teaches these skills & values." Ah, a new record in speed for trotting out the "start your own group" pat response. And be sued by the BSA for trying to muscle in on their goverment-granted monopoly? No thanks. Not everyone has the money, time, and resources to start such an organization from scratch. So I guess your only remaining response to the atheist or homosexual youth (if their family is not rich enough to start a brand new youth organization or pay legal fees to defend themselves from the BSA if they do try) is "too bad"? How very.

Ed says "It doesn't matter if they have the only pool table. To play on their table you have to become a member and if your aren't a vet of a foreign war, you can't become a member." Yes, Ed, and if people fell strongly that pool playing was something that everyone should have access to, I'd be very surpised if there wasn't a push to change that requirement (in our hypothetical world). My point is, some people feel strongly that the skills, activities, and yes, even the values (when not viewed with a Christian bias) of scouting are valuable enough that they should be available to ALL

Hunt says "The Veterans of Foreign Wars may have the nicest pool table in town, but I can't play there unless I'm a veteran of a foreign war--that's not unfair." Except that the VFW doesn't just have the nicest pool table. They have the ONLY pool table. And no one in town is willing to sell pool tables to anyone else. The BSA sues groups that try to start scouting organizations that look too much like the BSA. "As to your second question, I think your beef is not with ICF, but with the school. I don't think the fact that the military likes Eagle Scoutsmakes it unfair for BSA to

Wow, all 40 beltloops AND pins. That's quite an accomplishment. Definitely should be recognized! I wonder if you could find suspenders the right width that the beltloops would fit on them (only they'd be sideways, of course).... I'd say get them one of the A&S trophies.

Hunt, here's my problem with your analogy. What if Intervarsity Christian Fellowship, which meets on my college campus, is the only place where I can learn orienteering, a skill I am highly interested in, and which has nothing to do with being a Christian (i.e. scout skills and activities do not inherently require religious belief)? What if participation in ICF is the only thing that will ensure I get a better GPA when I gradutate (i.e. Eagle scouts getting higher pay grade in the military)? Is it still fair to limit participation to Christians only?

"I don't think a council can go against national policy." They tried to in 2003. I found some of the details of the story I was trying to remember. "Just weeks after Philadelphia's Cradle of Liberty Council of the Boy Scouts of America had adopted a policy in May of not discriminating against gays, the council kicked a Scout leader [Greg Lattera] out for publicly declaring that he is gay. Facing threats from the national BSA office to revoke its charter, the council, file nation's third largest, issued a new mission statement just days after the scout's expulsion, saying the anyone w

Then there is this inaccuracy in the article: "The national Boy Scouts require scout leaders, not members, to be straight." Yes, youth members can be kicked out for being gay. Not just adults, youth. I also seem to recall something a while ago about the Cradle of Liberty Council being coerced by National to enforce the "no gay leaders" policy when the council was NOT going to kick out a gay leader (can't remember his name, but it was fairly recently). If I recall correctly, the council was basically threatened to have their charter yanked by national unless they enforced the policy.

Maybe it has more to do with how the term is used. When flung at me as an epithath, I have a problem with it. Perhaps because in the past, "left" or "leftie" has usually been preceeded or followed by "commie pinko". Also, I have more of a problem when the term is used to pigeonhole an entire group (i.e. "O'Reilly's success stings the left"), versus when it is used to describe individual people or ideological positions. When it is used to describe my ideology, it is only semi-accurate, since I have many positions that could be considered paleo-conservative (as opposed to neo-conservative).

Brent: "Kind of like when I watch Media Research Center and NewsBusters to see how ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, MSNBC and NPR twist the news to favor the left." Actually, the nice thing about Media Matters and Crooks and Liars is that they report on inaccuracies by ALL media outlets, not just FNC. But there certainly seems to be on overabundance of stories about FNC compared to the other outlets. "Tell me one thing - please point out one instance where O'Reilly did anything half as bad as using forged documents to try to influence a national election. Or anything half as bad as falsly accu

Actually, after watching Fox News once or twice, I wouldn't be caught brain-dead watching it. I get my information about their antics from websites like Media Matters, Newshounds, and Crooks and Liars, which often include video/audio clips, which I often watch just to see how badly they really are mangling the "news". You know, those "smear merchants" that actually document the way that Fox News twists the news, by presenting what was said on Fox along side the real facts.

Hunt says "I generally agree with this (are they really representing Phelps?--ugh), but if ACLU really took that approach, it would have been on BSA's side in the Dale case, in which BSA's rights of association were threatened. That case had nothing to do with public schools, but involved an attempt to use a New Jersey law forbidding discrimination in places of public accomodation to force BSA--a private organization--to stop discriminating--this should have been anathema to a civil liberties group, but they took the opposite side." Yep, the ACLU is representing the Phelps in their fight

Fred writes: "If the goal of the ACLU is to open BSA to gays and atheists..." Actually, I never thought the goal of the ACLU was to open the BSA to gays and atheists. I thought their goal was to fight violations of civil liberties. So now that they've decided to fight for the freedom of speech of the Phelps clan, is the goal of the ACLU now to promote hatred of homosexuals? Don't confuse the goals of the ACLU with the goals of the people/groups they represent.

Beaver, I think your assessment of Fox News is spot on, as is your comparison of the differences between the news entertainment they provide and the journalism of the real news networks. And you aren't even one of those "lefties" (or should that be "us lefties"?) that have it out for Fox News! Bill O'Reilly certainly seems to be the worst offender on the misinformation without correction, retraction, or apology hit parade. Of course, let's not forget that anyone who points out his misinformation is a "smear merchant". But any publicity is good publicity when you are hawking your books, mu

Wow, it's not often you see that much spin in one place without a tornado warning being issued (outside of D.C. and Fox News, that is).(This message has been edited by DanKroh)

Well, Hunt, first let me say thank you for using a different example of what you consider an innapropriate role model. However, I am struck by this phrase: "Whether I will pull my kid out of his unit depends on several factors..." So, even though the SM is leading an immoral lifestyle (and therefore, by definition, not a good role model/leader), you would not automatically pull your kid from his unit. Interesting. Would you give the same consideration to a gay SM? "If a Southern Baptist wants a Scoutmaster to be a man who doesn't drink, smoke, or cuss, I think that's understanda

"I'm a little perplexed with the idea that discussing morality in public is somehow improper." Nope, nothing wrong with *discussing* morality in public. But there is a big difference between *discussing* morality and *preaching* about it. Most of the people I have seen speak against homosexuality in public are not so much interested in the discussion part as they are in the preaching about how it's immoral and evil part. "My point is that the term "homophobia" has some bite when applied to people who exhibit over-the-top revulsion, but it loses its meaning if it simply means anybody

Brent and Ed, Since the context of my quote was Hunt's opinion of what makes the label "homophobic" warranted, I thought it was obvious that I was speaking about what kind of behavior leads me to consider someone homophobic. You are, of course, perfectly entitled to be "in my face" about your homophobia, but then I will, of course, feel free to label it as such.

Hunt says: "Several people seem to assume that if a particular sexual orientation is genetically determined, that it thus can't be morally wrong to engage in actions consistent with that orientation." Actually, genetic determination has nothing to do with morality in my book. I think it can't be morally wrong because I've seen the looks of love, the tender touches, the respect and uplifting between partners that occurs in homosexual relationships. I've seen such relationships heal the souls of those who have been lost all their lives. I've seen such relationships create families with chil

Beaver: "For those who want to allow gays, how would you counsel a scout who has been hit on or molested by that 1 in 1,000 leader.........after the fact? How would you justify your stance to him? Gee Timmy, I'm sorry that Scoutmaster Bruce molested you, but you need to keep in mind that God made him attracted to other men and it is just as normal as you being attracted to the girls at school. He shouldn't have done what he did to you, but it is normal for him. How consoled will Timmy be that adults who are supposed to look out for him actually argued to allow people in leadership who co

Hey Trev, In Wicca (depending on one's tradition), Litha (the Celtic term for Midsummer, actually an old Germanic word that means "summer") is one of the "lesser Sabbats", as are the winter solstice and the equinoxes. Since it corresponds to the height of the Sun's power (longest day, highest position in the sky), it is considered a day of great power. It is usually celebrated with a bonfire the night before (does the bonfire at our COH last night count? and traditionally, is a time to harvest herbs and flowers to make medicines for the coming year. In neo-pagan practice, it is a ti

Ed, as long as you continue to support this fallacious viewpoint "Homosexuality is a choice made by humans", then I'm afraid we have no common ground on which to base this discussion. This also begs the discussion from earlier of if homosexuality is a choice made by humans, why is it present in the lower animals as well? Or do penguins, swans and rams make that choice, too? I am, however, further curious about this view of what comes from God vs. what is OK with God. Does everything that comes from God have God's stamp of approval in the Bible? What about genetic-based diseases (Down's sy

And for those of the Wiccan persuasion, Happy Midsummer/Litha!

Hunt, The only one of your examples of "immoral behavior" that the BSA has made a national, blanket policy about is homosexuality. If an unmarried heterosexual leader living with someone is considered immoral by so many, why doesn't the BSA issue a blanket policy banning them as leaders, as well? Same goes for smokers and heavy drinkers. Instead, they allow the units to decide on the fitness of these "immoral" individuals (assuming they pass the CORI) as leaders based on their individual merits and the level of comfort that the unit COR and parents have with that individual. Why can'