cubdadinnj

*no words to describe this horror for the boys and their families. please, please -- let's be vigilant with scouts of all ages*

A 17-year-old Boy Scout who suffered burns during an incident that went awry at the Joseph A. Citta Scout Reservation died Thursday at the Temple University Hospital Burn Unit in Philadelphia, authorities said.

Sean Whitley, 17, of Dogwood Road in Marlton, was pronounced dead by Dr. Amy MacKenzie at 4:27 p.m. yesterday, Ocean County Prosecutor Marlene Lynch Ford announced today.

The victim had been hospitalized at this location since receiving thermal injuries on Sunday, July 6, at the Joseph A. Citta Boy Scout Camp in Waretown," Ford said in a news release.

An autopsy is scheduled to be performed Saturday at Community Medical Center in Toms River.

Whitley's twin brother, Kenneth, 17, also was injured in the incident, as was a 14-year-old from Ocean County.

The Ocean County Prosecutor's Investigator Thomas Haskell and Ocean Township Police Detective William Sneddon are investigating.

Whitley was among three Boy Scouts who were recovering from burns suffered during a "ring of fire" incident.

Deputy Chief Michael Mohel of the Ocean County Prosecutor's Office had said the

incident occurred about 11:30 p.m. Sunday, when an 18-year-old Scout, who is also a senior staff member at the reservation, used rubbing alcohol from a bottle to create a flammable circle on a makeshift table.

The staff member, whom Scouting officials would not identify, thought that the fire

burned out. When he started to add fuel to the ring, an ember ignited a flame which

traveled back up the alcohol stream into the bottle, Mohel said.

http://www.courierpostonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080711/NEWS01/80711042/1006/RSS01

first, its clear that someone has put in a tremendous effort into designing the graphics of the main pack site, but the dens are a complete disaster. that said...

PLEASE -- your web site is SO out of compliance with BSA policies!

The ask.com link MUST come down

The weather forecast (which says Accuweather and another that says weather bug) -- MUST come down

The Google ad banners are NOT acceptable -- there cannot be ads of any kind!

I'm sure that the volunteers are well meaning, but there is so much here that goes against BSA policies. Make the changes quickly.

While I pray to God that none of our sons will ever be in a situation like this, its our job to train them, to be prepared.

Sad and awe-inspiring story of the heros these Scouts are.

Thanks for the insights --

In terms of efficiency, I get that loading the boys (and adults) gear into a trailer would make travelling easier.

I don't get those trailers, which to me, look like a quartermaster's hoard -- tents, tarps, tables, chairs, more dutch ovens than could imaginably used, grills that could roaast a pig. To me, these things are way overkill for a weekend scout camping trip.

I happen to like seeing a PL manage the gear his patrol needs -- spread the food out among the scouts, the stove, the tent, etc -- so that the patrol is really self sufficient. Rather than have the gear stowed in a trailer, that's like a storage locker.

Efficiency is great -- I bet with gas prices continung to rise, we'll see far fewer SUVs and large vans among troop parents -- maybe more troops (or parents!) will be getting Thul rooftop carriers, or small trailers.

Again, thanks all --

VERY NICE gwd-scouter!

Got a story for you -- A few years back we were on vacation, met a great family, and my teen (daughter), and a bunch of other teens got to hanging out. Really nice group of kids.

About a year later, there's a concert near our house, a couple of the teens came and stayed at our house (for the record -- as far as I know, nothing romantic going on, then OR now!!)

A couple of the guys come -- really nice guys. Clean up after themselves, make the bed, lots of please and thank-yous.

On the 2nd or 3rd night, I was doing something Cub Scout related with my son. I was pulled away to the phone, one of the visitors sits with him, finishes the task.

After they leave, the guest room and bath were spotless, trash out, beds, made, etc. Its THEN that I found out from my daughter that the guys are Eagle Scouts!!

Shoulda knon...

Let me ask -- how does having a troop trailer reinforce the patrol method?

Isn't the patrol method about the boys being self reliant, packing their own stuff, patrol gear, and food -- themselves?

When i was a scout some 35+ years ago, I don't ever recall seeing a trailer, unless maybe we all hauled our bikes or canoes someplace.

I've seen troops bring their trailers to camporees and council or district events -- some of them have kitchen set-ups that are unbelievable. Or they have cots and chairs for much of the troop.

How is this consistent with patrol method?

Thanks all --

First, to be clear, the treasurer has a clear record of what is in each Scout's "account." (offhand, though, I don't know the number) That said, the annual troop budget, for events, camping, fees, etc. is about $7k. We have way more than what is needed for a reserve.

And I might add, though we have a few Scouts where there are money issues in the family, we're by and large middle to upper middle class, so don't have a huge need for providing camp scholarships, say.

I'm not a proponent of divorcing from the CO -- unless it is to protect the troop's funds OR protect the PTO. But as much as the troop leadership is pretty stable, the PTO, I don't think is the case at all. Given the practice of returning excess scout money -- I would think that that practice could jeopardize the PTO's 501c3 status.

And, like several of you -- I am most uncomfortable, never the mind think its wrong, for the troop to fundraise, then (eventually, in a number of cases), pass the funds back to the boys.

Even this year we have a couple of Scouts who are graduating high school, have made Eagle, and are expecting their checks...

I *know* no one in the troop has any bad intentions here -- but I also don't think that any one in the troop has given it much thought, since its "always" been done this way.

Thanks

Becoming more involved with our troop, a couple of things concern me about the way money is handled. And yet, I can't really find anything at the national/council/district sites that clearly address any of this.

First, our CO is a a school PTO. We have virtually no interaction with them, they don't acknowledge us on their web site. They are a 501 c3 organization.

Our troop has, sitting in 2 bank accounts, well over $30k. While some of this is deposits for Scouts going to summer camp, and other trips, and some of it is earmarked for Scout accounts, it seems like a heck of a lot of money.

And yet the committee is very reluctant to spend any of it -- the troop is well equipped, but nothing extravagent or too new. But we could surely use a few new tents...

Moreover, the committee seems not to get/understand the relationship we have to the CO. I've suggested that not earmarking this money could prove a problem. And while I have no reason to believe that the PTO might be antagonistic towards our troop -- who knows what might happen. My concern is that if the PTO decided to drop us -- and they found out about the troop's riches -- as I read here, theyd be well within their rights to ask for the $$.

So -- either we need to self-charter, or quickly get aligned with the PTO.

Second point, our troop does pretty well with fund raisers -- and the boys generally get 30% for their scout accounts. Lets for a moment not get to the point that this money is used to pay for their summer camp, their personal equipment, and uniforms, or their Dad's leaders uniforms/equipment/trips.... We have Scouts turning 18, leaving the troop, who are given a check for $600, $1000, $1200, etc. for the remaining balance in their account.

(boy, I hope no one at the PTO reads this....)

I need some hard evidence to show the chair, treasurer, etc. about why these things are *really* concerning. They've been done this way for decades... literally, and no one's too worried.

Thanks -- and btw, a forum specifically for banking/ treasurers, etc could be really useful!

TroopDad

Our troop wears read berets -- most of the guys think they look pretty cool.

best part about it, very easy to spot "our" guys at any kind of district/council event!

/p

Perhaps the biggest change in "camping" that I've seen is the amount of gear that is schelpped along.

And I wonder for whose benefit? The boys or the Dads (and Moms...).

We want our Scouts to learn self-reliance, leadership, being "thrifty," right? So for a weekend campout, why do we need to bring tables, portable kitchens, screened in tents for dining, etc etc.

Trailer troops, mostly becasue they can, seem to go far overboard here. I've seen troops who literally bring along nearly all the gear they own in their trailer -- when only a fraction is needed for a 1 or 2 night camping trip. And it doesn't seem to matter if the campout is 25 miles away or 300 miles.

Let me add, that from the perspective of being respectful of our environment and resources, all this schlepping is even more absurd.

I don't see any reason, why a patrol of 5 - 8 guys can't bring everything they need for a couple of nights on their backs.

/p

Looking for all-inone services, using our troop domain, which offer both hosting and a template solution for building a web site.

Recommendations appreciated!

Thanks,

Pete

Who are some good, all-in-one, hosting/template providers?!

Thanks

Pete

Bob White - I wasn't clear -- yes the BSA has *some* guidelines, but, at least for someone like me who is concerned both with content as well as implementation, its not very specific on either.

http://www.scouting.org/webmasters/units.aspx

To me, this emphasizes "proper Scout decorum", youth safety, and legal (don't steal content!).

This puts us, as a unit (absent local district or council info), in the position of interpreting and making determinations about specifics - e.g., level of detail provided on a public site, about calendars, troop functions, etc., what is the right tone and look for the site, what do we think/believe equals youth safety, and other than using permissable logos & RSS feeds, what about content?

In some ways this is no different than using traditional means of communications -- except that the potential audience is much much larger and completely uncontrolled, which amplifies the importance of doing this right. (for the unit, district, council, BSA, and, the CO).

Thanks for the discussion --

Pete

Isn't it odd --that there must be 10's of thousands of web sites for Cub Packs and Boy Scout Troops -- and there is no little guidance from the BSA.

In our troop there some don't want to have pictures or even a troop calendar on a public site -- others think that as long as the pictures have no names and the calendar no specifics "eg = "Campout" not "Campout at XYZ Park" its ok. (I fall in the latter group).

THANKS --

Pete

As the Dad of a special needs Scout, not quite 1 year as a Boy Scout, I watch and read this topic with great interest.

My son is severely dyslexic -- he's a 6th grader, who can read at about a 3rd grade level, but his writing and spelling is barely at K level. He made it quite well through Cub Scouts without any accomodations -- but Boy Scouts, I'm not so sure.

He joined the troop almost a year ago, has now progressed to Tenderfoot, with one 2nd class requirement left to do. Did I say he LOVES scouts!

That is what motivates him -- though it is harder than for other boys. And unlike school, there is so much he can excel in which is not based on reading/writing. He knows all his knots. He has become the patrol "cook" -- he has a real knack for it. And because of his disability, he has a real sense for how to teach things in a very hand on way -- so he's a natural helping even newer Scouts!

He's only earned a couple of merit badges (I say only, because other boys with tenure seem to have earned many more) -- like swimming, rowing -- physical things he can do well. He is very interested in earning first aid next -- and that will be a challenge. I will certainly be working with him on reading through the book over and over. (It would be FANTASTIC if the entire text were available digitally, since we have special software to read to him, and WONDERFUL if at least sections were on video -- he learns much better in multiple dimensions).

We are part of a great troop -- and I expect he will be well supported in his scouting years, and that he will be expected to make it to Eagle...

Pete

(no longer a Cub Dad -- now on the troop commitee as communications chair - as of this week!)

Our troop first started the process of a building a web site over 2 years ago -- no site is yet up. There is much frustration in the troop about this.

The 2 guys who took responsibility for this are highly tech savvy, veteran scouters, ASMs.

But (IMO) they are so hamstrung about security, and what content is private vs public -- they have not been willing to let anything go up on the web yet.

I think "their" whole site is over engineered with security and layers of technology that no one, except them, might be able to understand. In addition, both of their sons made Eagle several years ago, and they are becoming somewhat more removed from troop activities. So who will know how to administer or maintain this thing in a couple of years?

And I am very uncomfortable with these guys interpreting the "guidelines" for what the BSA says about sites, and then being responsible to implementing the security and maintaining it.

In terms of a web site -- my preference is to go with one of the tech companies that does this for other Boy Scout troops. That way the technology, platforms, security, etc are not things we need to maintain

That said -- as best as I can tell, the national BSA site does not appear to have "troop site guidelines" -- what I read is quite minimal, and rather pushes this out to the district or council.

But our district does not appear to have any guidelines at all!

So -- what is a well meaning troop to do, about putting up an attractive, useful site -- that is adequately youth protective and for private items, secure?

Lastly -- at some point I think we need to pull the plug on the internally developed (but not released) site -- that will not be a fun conversation -- because these ASMs are truly great guys. But they and the troop will be better served having them deal with program -- and not as web masters. How the heck do we do that?

Thanks.

In our troop the adults have a couple of options --

1. eat with a patrol (and pay what the boys pay)

2. cook on their own

3. adults get their own food/ go out to eat

My comments

1. I like this, builds comraderie with the boys, the food is usually good, sometime great(!) - BUT I do think that it brings an adult into the picture, even though its on the side watching.

2. No problem with this, its a little anti-social, though.

3. Sometimes I think this is good - on a longer trip, it gives everyone a break. That said, I'm not so sure that it models the most ideal behavior.

I do smile, though, when a newbie camper comes along on a trip (most often, their son is new to Scouting, and this is early on) -- seeing them bring along coolers, stoves, etc. for ONE!

/p

The New York Times has a front page article, that the case has been decided in favor of the city, not the Scouts --

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/06/us/06scouts.html?adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1196957788-GMtw/gZhfpj6nLskXdZPGQ

I am sad for the boys themselves in this district, their families, and the Scouters. I've been in Scouting long enough to know that replacing this facility is likely well outside the budget of the council. I am sure they are doing great work.

At 50, a lifelong Scouter myself, with a son in his first months of Boy Scouts -- the BSA policy is wrong and must be changed.

It infuriates me that the issue of a boys sexuality has any place at all in BSA.

I have no reason to believe that my son, who is 11, might be gay. But what if he is? What if, in the next 5 + years, as he grows an matures -- that he is?

Would I be surprised, need to take a deep breath -- yes, clearly.

My boy loves Scouting -- he had a great time and learned so much in Cub Scouting. His transition into Boy Scouts has been great. He is severely learning disabled -- and its a real challenge for him to advance. He's doing it and I'm so proud of him.

So, when he's older, say 17 -- if he realizes that he is probably gay not straight -- he must keep his mouth shut or withdraw from an organization, his friends, mentors, his Troop because of it?

Last night was a Board of Review for Star. This young Scout, when asked about how the Scout law works in his life -- in a heartbeat was able to talk about being honest, being trustworthy.

In a few years, when I hope to sit on his Eagle Board of Review -- I want him to be honest, to be trustworthy -- and he deserves that back from us, too.

What if he believes he might be gay? Then what?

I'm really struggling -- I appreciate the discussion here --

Pete

Thank you all for your thoughtful responses.

I was a Cub Scout and Boy Scout all the way to Life. I was in a BS Troop -- where the Scoutmaster moved away. No one in the Troop would take over -- my own love of scouting -- I got my neighbor (who had no kids himself!) to become Scoutmaster!

In my family, there is a history of alcoholism/addiction issues -- so I am very sensitive to this.

What makes it harder is that it was not just 1 or 2 adults drinking - it was probably 15 or more. WHile I do drink occasionally, I did not at this event -- I may have been the only non-drinking adult.

If these kids were not the ones my son is friends with, goes to school with, etc. -- this would be an easy choice -- I'd find another Pack.

I'm going to talk with my son's Den Leader on Saturday about my concerns -- if he is aligned with me then it makes the task a bit easier.

Alcohol and drugs are so pervasive -- regardless of BSA policy -- I wouldn't want drinking around my son and his friends! Of course, since its policy, its wrong, period.

Thanks,

P

ok -- so within my son's pack there was recently drinking at a pack event by the adults, including leaders at various levels.

i'm pretty disturbed by this -- but clearly don't want to yank my son out of the pack -- where his friends are.

seems like the majority of the parents (and leaders) are ok with this, since they are bringing their own alchol.

but its not ok by me. need some advice here. (I have considered printing out the policy on this -- if someone can direct me to it on the web -- and having a stack at the next pack meeting)

thanks.

P

looking for information -- especially since it looks like I'll take on the role as "assistant" Den Leader.

Thanks --

Pete