CNYScouter

How this is going to happen I have no idea.

I know that our councils training records are a mess. I have been told at every training session that I have attended to put the card in a safe place, as this is the only way I will be able to prove I took the training.

We were also told that if this card got lost, the only way to get a replacement you better be able to remember where and when you took the training and even then the records are not guaranteed to be found.

However, I have now been told by my District Training Commissioner, the Council Training Commissioner, and now my DE that this will happen in the next 3 years.

I am not woried, I have taken training for all the positions I hold and I encourage the other leaders in my units to do so.

I am in the beginning stages of putting together a Sea Scout Ship and have been trying to find somewhere closeby where I can take Venturing Leader training. (I'm not real convinced that the one scheduled in my council will take place.)

I know that training has become a big issue in our council.

So far this year the only training that has not been canceled was SM training.

Eamonn, you said that in your district every SM has Wood Badge. In my district, there are no SMs with Wood Badge training and Wood Badge was canceled this year because not enough people signed up.

How an Insurance company would ever find out if a unit was following the program is a mystery to me.

You are right on this one and they most likely cannot.

However, from what I was told, the insurance company is asking Weve agreed to insure these scout units as BSA run units. How can you assure us that this is what we are doing.

I am not sure but this probably comes from all the headlines about the Scouts and Scouters being killed this summer at Jambo and in the West.

In this day and age, the liability issue is becoming a major factor in everything.

YPT- up to date does mean taken within the last 2 years.

I know that YPT is pretty easy to do online but the Troop I just left never said a word to any leader about any type of training

And my council can not tell me either with any acuracy who is trained or not but my DE had a pretty good idea which Troops were sending their leaders to training and which ones were not.

To be considered trained (I got this from our Council Training Coordinator):

To re-charter this year (2006):

All adult leaders must have Fast Start for their position.

To re-charter next year in a Troop (2007):

All adult leaders must have Fast Start for their position

SM must have:

Fast Start

NLE

SM Training and Outdoor Leader Skills (current version of training)

YPT must be up to date

CC must have

Fast Start

NLE

Troop Committee Challenge

YPT must be up to date

To re-charter the year after that(2008):

SM & CC as above

All ASM must have same as SM

All Committee Members must have same as CC

The same will correspond to Cub Pack Leaders and Venturing Crew Leaders also.

Thanks to all of you who said to me that if I do not like the units I am seeing to I should start my own unit.

I just met with my DE about starting a unit and the discussion lead to mandatory training (he brought this up) for all adult scout leaders our council is putting in place over the next 3 years.

I asked him straight out if he would really drop a unit if its leaders were not trained. His answer to me was YES.

He said that due insurance liability issues, full training for all adult leaders will be required and they will be dropping units that do not have trained leaders.

He also told me that as soon as mandatory training has been completed it would be required for all adults going on Scout activities to be trained.

He said there has been pressure from the councils insurance company that when a Scout has been injured on an activity, even if there is only one adult acting as a leader on the trip has been not been trained, the insurance company is questioning how do they know that scout did not get injured while being supervised by the untrained leader?

Our council was using as a model a council in western NY (near Buffalo, NY) that just completed this. They ended up dropping 12 units whose leaders refused to attend training.

He also hinted, when I told him I was disappointed in my choices in Troops to join in the district that were not following the BSA program, that the insurance liability issued would be used to get more units to follow the program. He did not come out and say this directly but suggested that the insurance company wants to be sure that all units are following the same program.

He also said that as a professional, whose job is to increase membership, that he can see that when they go in and help struggling units and they convince them to follow the program, they see a big increase in the size of the unit and a plan is being worked out to get more units to closely follow the BSA program.

I can see that some professionals do see the way to increase membership is to provide a better program, and not just increase numbers and are working on ways to try and make it happen.

We will see what happens in the next few years with this.

OneHour-

It seems that you are on the right track with doing high adventure trips for the older scouts. But, without adult leaders to run these its not going to happen.

It seems that the question you are really asking is:

How can we run a high adventure program when we have adult leaders who cannot or will not do high adventure activities?

The obvious answer is to recruit adults who like to and can do these types of activities.

As mentioned in other posts and threads contact any local clubs that do the activity you want to do and see if any of the members are willing to help run a trip.

Do high adventure trips that an outfitter can run the trips and have your leaders meet the guides at the end. We went on a one-day white-water rafting trip at a place that had registered Scout leaders as some of their guides. They knew the scout program and were trained in G2SS and youth protection and with pre-arrangements I think would have taken the scouts out.

Where else to find leaders? Call up MB councilors in your area and see if they can help with a trip. If you have adults physically unable to do high adventure perhaps, they can come in and help run a trip

See if there is another Troop you could team up with to do high adventure. You may be able to find a Troop with all younger scouts with leaders just chomping at the bit to do this stuff and cant because their scouts are not old enough yet.

Attend roundtable, explain your situation and ask for help. Scouters there usually have answers and can help with just about any situation.

Does your council run high adventure trips? Our council runs trips to Philmont, Seabase and Jamborees that do not require Troop leaders to go. Most of these trips have enough adult leaders already in place.

Find a summer camp that offers high adventure trips on a provisional option. This is where scouts can attend without a leader.

I'm sure there are more ways to do these types of trips and I hope this helps

So, what do you do when you feel that you are surrounded by anchors?

Ive been involved with adult scout leaders who dont know the program and are not willing to learn, adult scout leaders who are trained and know the program but do not want to use parts of it, adult scout leaders who want to known as Scouters, but do not want to put effort into the program and who dont want to step down and adult scout leaders who just refuse to follow the program.

Go to roundtable and training to learn more. Ive taken all the basic training. All the supplemental training offered (Wood Badge, Trainers Development, etc.) has been canceled due to not enough participants. Our Districts roundtable does not discuss how to improve our programs but just cover MBs (and will for the next 1 years). I would love to get involved there and have taken Roundtable Commissioners training but since I am not one of the old timers who run our district (and still along way from being one), I will never be asked.

I have yet to meet a CO that wants to involved with the unit they charter. I know there out there, but these are the LDS and strong religious based units and none that I have met.

I have been told to associate with people who have the same outlook as myself. I cant seem find a Troop that is close to me that understands and uses the patrol method. DE could only point to one Troop in the district, hour drive away, which has a healthy program and really understands the patrol method. (also the biggest, most active Troop in the District)

Go to a Unit Commissioner for help. He just sends me to the DE.

Find a struggling troop that needs help. Our District has no struggling troops, just ask the troops leaders. Every troop I talked with has told me they run a great program its just cant they get kids interested in joining or staying in the program.

Start a Unit. DE was real gung-ho when I talked with him about starting a new unit and I thought I had a CO. But, when this CO fell though, he has been unresponsive when asking him to help me locate a CO willing to fulfill its shared responsibility. Im still working on this but it looks like I will have to do everything from finding a CO to putting together a Committee to recruiting members if I want to make this happen

Even my spouse cant understand why I have a problem with Troops not following the program as no one else seems to mind. (Actually, I have had other say things to me but they were not willing to speak out or put any effort into trying to make a change).

What to do? Drop out? Shut up and except the poor programs Im finding? Put a huge effort into trying to start a unit that Im not sure if I will have any support for?

At this point Im not sure what the future is going to hold.

All I know is that my son, who will be 14 in Oct. is being coming bored with Scouts. He is not interested in going camping or outings anymore and has asked me to help him make Eagle as fast as he can. He has expressed interest in a Venturing Crew but since we have no active Crews in our District, I will have to try to start one (or travel some distance to find an active one).

The threads on Sea Scouting have me curious about this program.

What is the difference (if any) between a Sea Scout Ship and a SCUBA ship?

I thought I would throw my 2 cents in on this topic about the SM conference and the Dad.

I think both did not do things very well in handling this situation and both did things that I think are not out of line either.

I do fell that a SM should do everything possible to make time for a scout. However, I do not think he was that out of line in asking to postpone the conference a week. Sometimes things do get busy.

I feel that the Dad was way out of line in starting an argument over this. I feel that asking why this was postponed was something that the Dad should have done.

I had a situation when my son was getting his Star rank. He had finished all the requirements but had not gotten his SM conference or BOR. So I asked the Troops ASM for Advancement why. The reason he gave was he said that my son hadnt done a POR. I replied that he had been trained and working as a Den Chief. He said that he knew that but a Den chief wasnt really a real position for leadership. When I pushed the issue and said that it was in the handbook as a POR, he agreed and arranged his conference and BOR.

I would have blown this off to inexperience but the ASM had been in the Troop since he was 11 and become an adult leader when he was 18 and is now 48. So, after 37 years in scouting he had know idea that a Den Chief fulfilled a POR.

To get back on the topic of this thread, the one basic concept Ive learned and seen repeated on this forum about Retaining sails and dropping anchors is to take the time to find the best person for the position. All to often we jump at the first person that agrees to do the job instead of selecting and asking the best person suited for the job. I know have to agree that in Retaining sails and dropping anchors this is the best way.

I agree that the BSA does provide this model with training, the manuals, Scouting magazine, Boys Life, and Roundtables.

However, you are assuming that the training is well-done and you have good roundtables that actually discuss scouting topics like this. (in which we dont)

In addition, there are just some concepts, such as the boy-run unit and passive leadership that some people just cant grasp it until they see it in action.

Being in a scout unit as a youth with leaders that really understood the scouting program I saw this in action and after taking SM training I thought I had a good idea what this meant. But have to say when I saw a SM run his troop this way I really knew what these were.

I have also noticed that one thing that these successful units have in common is good fundraising and the use of individual scout accounts. These units do a good deal of fundraising and the majority of the money goes to the scouts. This was not talked about in training and there is only one sentence in the SM handbook that says some units use individual accounts. I can fully see that this is a great motivator to bring kids into a program.

I have to say that our district or at least the units I have been involved with does not have a good commissioner staff. In the 4 units I have been involved with the UC for the cub pack only came around to do FOS and when I went to him with an issue he sent me to the DE. The first troop did not have an UC (SM said they didnt need one) and have no idea who the UC for our new troop is.

I am curious on how to staff a unit without being forced to retain the kinds of folks who are anchors and not sails.

As an ASM I do not see how I can accomplish this especially with a SM and CC not willing to follow the program and a CO that is not willing to fullfill its shared responsability.

I am also curious about going about doing this when starting a new unit?

Perhaps I should have started this thread under training but since I started this thread Ill try to get it back on topic:

When I see units that have 80+ kids with perpetually strong leaders and programs I think the BSA needs to find a way to better use these model units to increase the quality of the Scouting program.

I see units that year after year that keep their numbers up and consistently draw kids into the unit and leader after leader understands the program.

I also see units that for years have been mediocre and never really develop into a strong program. I see even with COs selecting leaders and after attending training, many do just not understand how to apply the Scouting program.

Perhaps we need to include as part of SM training spending time with these highly successful units to see how they do things.

As we all know, leadership skills can be learned. I think that this way will do a better job to spread the knowledge on running a successful Scoutng Program

Im thinking we can start small.

Identify a struggling unit or before starting a new unit, have the SM and CC (voluntarily) work with the successful unit to learn how to run a successful program.

I did this and even after spending only one afternoon with a successful unit and a SM that really understood the scouting program, I had real insight on how to run a good scouting program and how to use passive leadership to run a troop.

If every new SM, as part of training, were to spend a few months with successful units like this, I really feel that the quality of the scouting program in units would take off and our numbers would start growing again.

I myself have been trying to present a good, exciting and fun scouting program but seem to meet resistance wherever I turn. I have been dealing with adult leaders who are not willing to put the time into the program (and also not willing to step down, ling term leader who want to do things there way or else or other adults who just decide they dont like part of the BSA program so they dont use it and are reluctant to try anything else.

I just talked with my DE about the lack of quality units in our district. Our district does not even have a SM with Wood badge training. I talked with him about units in our district that really understood the patrol method and are a boy run troop. He could only point me to one unit, 20 miles away, that he thought did a good job with the Scouting program.

I have been looking into starting a new troop in my area. But, with the drastic decrease of cub scouts in our area this I have not gotten a good deal of support for this either (unless I am willing to go into the inner-city gang infested areas) as currently there are more Boy Scouts than Cub Scouts and I dont see how our district can support another troop.

I hate to be all doom and gloom and some of you maybe in areas where there is a strong scouting program and dont see the need to do something.

However, if you are in area like mine and are seeing scouting dieing a slow death due to poor quality units and nothing being done, you have to start thinking something needs to be done to reverse this trend.

If the BSA owns the program and charters this program to contracted partners, the Charter Organizations, why cant the BSA change the program to require its leaders to have a minimum amount of training before becoming a leader?

The BSA has changed the requirements for a Scout to become Eagle many times in its history.

I can remember bustin my butt to finish my Eagle requirements back in 1972 or 1973 before the number of Merit badges increased from 21 to 24, so why cant it do this for leader requirements?

BW - could you clarify what you mean by But unless performance criteria is changed drastically and what changes would you like to see.

Also our council is going to manditory training for leaders by 2007.

I also have been told by a few leaders (cub leaders) that they will drop being a leader if they are required to take training.

I would rather see this responsability placed on the individual rather than a unit by requiring an individual be fully trained in their position before than can be re-registered.

I have to say that money and education really have nothing to do with running a successful program.

Our district runs the gambit from low-income inner-city areas to suburban upper class very wealthy areas to somewhat rural farming communities. I know units, both packs and troops, from low-income areas that are large and doing very well. I also know units from these same areas that are ready to fold. The same is true of the wealthy areas. The difference is the quality of the program.

Its Me I commend you for concentrating your efforts on the boys. This is what I ended up having to do and trying to plan good, fun den meetings to hold the boys interests.

Having gone through this same type of situation be very concerned when its time for these two to leave. Because they have doing all the work in planning and running the pack events youll have no one familiar or ready to take over.

When the 3 people left our pack, because they handled everything, no one was willing to step forward as they had either pissed people off because they didnt want any others suggestions or people were so used to having it done for them they werent willing to come forward and help.

Also, be very concerned if they are handling the money for the pack. We really ran into problems that after 6 years of selling no less than $10K in popcorn each year, when they left us the pack only had $28 in the packs account and $300 in unpaid bills. Didnt steal the money, just spent it. It was all accounted for in the bank records, it was just gone. As one of them handled the money, we never saw a pack balance sheet and we always told everything was OK.

I totally agree with BW that the system the BSA has with COs responsible for selecting works and works well if used, but I just see that it is not being used by way too many CO's.

I can say that a conservative estimate in my district is that 66% of the COs are hands-off and do nothing more than supply a place to meet.

I also agree that if a unit has not selected the right people no amount of training (mandatory or not) will make a meaningful difference. Im in a Troop that has every leader fully trained in their position and these trained leaders have decided which parts of the BSA program are important to use and which ones are not.

BW - one of the points I wanted to make is why cant the BSA have a say in selecting leaders? I know its not policy now, but why doesnt BSA have set policies in selecting leaders to run its program?

With so many hand-off COs I really think the BSA needs to step up and set some policies regarding the selecting of leaders and at least have a say in who's running it's program.

I do like the idea for successful troops breaking off and starting but what about the areas where Troops never become successful enough to start a "plant" Troop.

The real point I was trying to make was how do we use the knowledge of these Troops that have been successful for years and put it to better use?

I was lucky to have as a patrol guide (??) at SM training a SM from a Troop that has had tremendous success for 30+ years. This SM was not a scout and not even been an SM that long. However, he started as an ASM with the troop and learned how to be successful just by being in a well-run program.

I learned more just by talking with him over the training weekend than I did from most of the training. After training, I visited his troop; watched how he lead the troop, and in the few hours I spent with him I could really see he understood the scouting program. I wish I could have spent more time just to learn more. If I could have spent 3 to 6 months working with him, I would really have the skills and knowledge to run an incredibly successful program.

So, how can we harness this knowledge and skill this troop has generated and really put it to use to improve the quality of the units out there?

(This message has been edited by CNYScouter)

Has the Pack been 100+ kids consistantly or has it got ths big over the last few years

The pack you are sounds like the one we were in a few years ago. Same demographics, Upper middle class well educated professionals. No committee meetings. CM, ACM and CC did it all and did not want any help.

Didn't matter what the Pack meetings were like the Pack kept growing. Why? Becuase Cub Scouts happen to the "hot" trend amoung the parents and they had to be in. Also I have found that if your Den Meetings are fun you can often get away with so-so Pack meetings.

So what happen a couple of years later. Kids were bored so they didn't want to come. The 3 Pack Leaders left and Den meetings became boring. Pack meeting often had 100% attendance but Den meetings became boring or non-exisitant. Pack ended up folding last year.

Our community has a population of 25k, 1 Troop with 35 kids.

I know a Troop 30 miles north of here in a coumminity of 9K. Lower income, blue collar that has 80 kids in it. This troop does no recruiting as it draws kids from all the surrounding communities.

It was pointed out to me as one of the top programs in our council. Theres not a single unit in our district that comes close to this unit.

Demographics play into it with some degree, but sorry, I have to disagree and still maintain that the quality of a unit has more to do the declining or growing of the Scouting population than any other factor.

(Sorry for the long post it just got away from me)

I have say that I agree with you posters that state that policies National set and even policies by a councils SE make, do not have a great an impact on the BSA number decline as some suggest.

IMHO, I see each individual unit having a greater impact on recruiting and the declining number of scouts.

I do agree that some National policies have had some impact on recruiting but the lack of quality units and quality leaders is more of the problem with declining numbers than anything else.

When I see units with 70, 80 and 90+ scouts that have no trouble in maintaining these number consistently, it really shows me that if presented as intended the BSA program works, still draws kids in and no change is really necessary.

I saw the question asked:

Wouldn't raising the quality of volunteers have a much greater impact on the program?

So, how can we do this.

I think that there is a clear problem with the way we select our leaders. Currently its left to the COs to select leaders for their units. I just see that in too many cases, this is left to the unit and the first person that agrees to do it is selected with out much thought going into it.

Its not that the method is bad its just that there are way to many hands off COs who do not want to be involved with the running of the units they charter.

Training is then left up to the individual to get the suggested training for their position (I know its the COs responsibility but again way too many are hands off)if they can get around to doing it.

I dont think mandatory training is the answer either. I know fully trained leaders who just dont like part of the program so they dont use it. There are also many units who have never seen a successful unit in operation and just dont know how one runs.

As we all know Success breeds Success and I would like to suggest the BSA use a successful business model for improving the quality of leaders and units.

This would be the franchise concept.

With a reference I saw to McDonalds, one of the most successful franchises in the world, I see a great similarity to them and a BSA unit.

When you go to a McDonalds (Troop), the location maybe different and you may find one two items on the menu to be different (different specialties or trips), but the core menu (program) is the same. Every McDonalds is managed and run in the same way following a set successful program.

When you walk into a McDonalds, you know what to expect. But when I walk into a scout unit I can say that I have not found 2 units that even come close to resembling each other or have found very few units that are really following the BSA program as intended.

How does McDonalds select its managers (SM and CC). You need to work in a McDonalds to learn how it works, you then go thru an interviewing process and if you are selected you attend Hamburger University (SM/CC training). At this time you then become a manager.

What happens when one of the franchises decides not to follow the McDonalds program? First, training is retaken to retrain in the deficiencies, if the franchise continues to still not follow the program a change in management is then made, and if this does not work the franchise is pulled.

Why does McDonalds do this? It knows that a poorly run unit reflects on the chain as a whole. A person who receives sub-par service or food does not return, not to just that particular restaurant but to any McDonalds. They also tell their friends about the bad service.

How does this relate to a Scout Troop? I would like to see the BSA put together a checklist of what is considered a well-run program to be used for a unit to follow and to be used as an evaluation to see how well the program is being run.

I would like to see the BSA do BORs or interviews to become an SM or CC. We do this for a Scout to become Eagle and we have to interview for jobs, why not to be a SM or CC? A CO could still take an active role in selecting a leader but with the all too many "hands-off" CO'sit would allow the BSA to have more control over who is becoming a leader.

Who would do this, perhaps redirecting our commissioner service for this task? The commissioner service could also use the checklist to evaluate how well a unit is following the program. I see many areas having declining numbers in adults involved and many in the commissioners service, this may be a way to do more with less.

Councils can use the checklist to set up or find a troop that can be used as a training or model unit for a SM and CC to work with for a short period to learn how to operate a Troop before taking over in their position. As councils get more units following a successful program, it can expand its training units until each unit has a successful program.

I am not suggesting we do this all at once but for a new unit or as a unit needs to replace a leader (SM or CC) it goes through this process.

A few of you may say that we are having enough trouble finding leaders and this would detour this even more. The BSA is losing numbers anyway and IMHO, wouldnt it be better to have fewer, larger well run units than a bunch of mediocre and poorly run units that cant recruit or retain its scouts.

If this type of route is taken, as these troops start drawing in more and more scouts (because their leader have been trained and know how to successfully recruit), they can break off and still stay successful as have been trained and have learned how to follow a successful program.

I know this is not perfect but I really think the BSA needs to take a look at the way leaders are selected and trained, along with the quality if the units out there, as there are just way too many poorly run units that are turning kids off to scouting.

I have seen many posts suggesting something should be done but have not seen suggestions for a good plan to make it happen.

This is just a concept and idea I wnated to throw out there.

In my district, we currently have 31 traditional Scout Troops and 24 traditional Cub Scout Packs.

Of these, we have 17 Troops/Packs that have the same units number all but 4 have the same CO. Almost all of these Packs are feeder to there Troop.

I also know that we have a few troops/packs that are feeder units but do not have the same number (some have the same CO).

If this is a new pack, who are you going to be out of line with?

I would try to find as many packs near you that do not have a relationship with a troop and develop as mnay of these as you can.

SP-

You may want to look at the Adirondack Scenic Railroad

They run a Train trip from Utica, NY into Old Forge in the heart of the Adirondack Mountains. From Old Forge, you could rent canoe/kayaks or mountain bikes or hike into the Adirondack Mountains.

Not exactly what you are looking for but a great trip anyways

CNYScouter(This message has been edited by CNYScouter)

OK, Ill take PLC meetings for $200, BW

who the BSA program says is in a PLC and where that information can be found?

What is the senior patrol leader, who presides over the meetings; the assistant senior patrol leader, all patrol leaders, and the troop guide(s)?

&

What is the Scoutmasters Handbook? (also www.scouting.org)

CNYScouter

Since you do not like the term Paper Eagle what do you call a Scout that came through a program that did everything for him and was not really required to show responsibility or put any extra-effort into earning his Eagle award?

Examples:

1)All MBs were earned at Summer Camp or arranged for him by an adult to do at Troop meetings.

2)All camping trips were planned and run by adults

3)Majority of troop meetings are spent playing football or Frisbee.

4)Because he was so busy with outside activities he barely performed his PORs.

Yes, he did fulfill the requirements for Eagle but what values was he taught?

A system is in place (and has been for nearly a century) to ensure that the scout's troop, district, council and national have determined that the Eagle rank requirements have been satisfied

The system relies mostly in the hands of the Troop. District, council and national are relying on a Scouts Troop and the Scout to supply whether he has fulfilled the requirements or not. So if a troop is letting requirements slide how is the District, council or national going to know

If a Scout is pushed though and everything handed to him, how is he taught values?

One of the values that was focused on when I made Eagle was giving back to the unit. Although I made Eagle at 14 I did stay and help with the troop until I was 16, as did all of the other Scouts who made Eagle in the troop.

In fact, the only Scout I remember not staying in well after making Eagle was the one whos parents pushed him through his ranks. They wanted him to be the youngest Scout to ever make Eagle. The Eagle BOR did not think he was mature enough and denied him his Eagle. They required him to come back in 6 months, in which they did pass him and we never saw him again.

Im in a Troop that has most scouts leave the program when they make Eagle.

We only have one Eagle that has stayed, but he is only interested in earning more MBs and is close to his 5th palm.

This question is not a slight against a Scout or to put down a Scouts achievement but a question about the way a troop is running its Scouting program.

Paper Eagle- one where an adult arranges all the MB to take during troop meetings, because he is so busy with sports does not do a good job with POR's and is not very active with the troop most of the time.

He "technically" did do the requirements just did not learn alot of Scoutings values on the way.

I am not looking for a way to belittle a boy's accomplishment or saying the BSA program is a failure, but asking when a Troop's program promotes this and when scouts make eagle early (young) and leave the program, do you consider this type of program a failure as a Scoutng Program?

Ive seen the term Paper Eagle here on the forums.

So, what is everyones option on a kid who Eagless Out at 15 and is never seen again even if the kid has a good reason not to be involved with scouting (Sport scholarship to a large University)

How many of you Paper Eagles as a failure of the troops program or not?

Linda J-

The way Districts events are run in our district is that Troops are asked to Host and run the Camporee.

Since the Troops I have been with have no desire to even attend District events there is no way they are interested in hosting or running an event.

In fact, I am going on 3 years being a Troop leader I have not attended a single Boy Scout District event as the Troop usually schedules their own trips opposite the District events.

If no Troops come forward (about 2/3 of the time) our "old timers" run the event. To become one of the "old-timers" you need to be in scouting at least 20 years in Scouting and then be selected to join the group.

fgoodwin - I have to agree. I saw the same type of thing when I had Troops tell me they hadn't had a new scout in over 2 years but I never saw them represented at School recruitment night (there are 3 Troops drawing from the same 3 or 4 schools)

This type of stuff is not new.

When I went to the 73 National Jambroree at Moraine State Park, PA. I had patches stolen during trading.

It often happened when 2 or 3 scouts would gather around you to trade and one of them would take a patch while you where distracted doing a trade with another one. It was rampant back then also.

I ended not trading very many patches after this and only did trades one-on-one with another scout.

We had a scout in our troop get caught by our SM doing this type of stuff and he never returned to the Troop after this.

I also heard rumors that our lodge OA flap, at the time very desirable, had been ripped right off of the pocket of a kids shirt.

It sad when I think that there are still many untrustworthy scouts out there