cliffgolden
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Posts posted by cliffgolden
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I tell the boys they need to use the official bsa provided patrol patches. No one has ever challenged me on that.
They can call their patrol whatever they wish (within good taste) but they need to choose a bsa patrol patch that can be purchased at the local Scout shop.
When the "Leprichaun" patrol decided non of the bsa patches matched their patrol name, they changed their name to the "Invisible Leprichaun" patrol so they could use the blank patrol patch.
The "Man-eating Coatamundi Plant" patrol used the pine tree patrol patch. The "Road Kill" patrol wore the Racoon patrol patch upside down.
After surviving a severe storm while camping at Assateague Island in Maryland, one patrol decided to change their name to the "Assateague" patrol. They used the Lightning patrol patch.
Boys are pretty creative!
The BSA provides quite a selection of patrol patches to choose from, so boys shouldn't need to use military patches. I don't feel military patches belong on a bsa uniform.
YIS,
Cliff Golden
Scoutmaster Troop 33
DeKalb, Illinois
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Our troop was included in an article in the January-February 2004 issue of Scouting Magazine, "Skating on Slivers of Steel". It was an article about ice boating on Lake Geneva in Wisconsin.
We didn't do anything special, except make a copy to post on our troop bulletin board.
It's nice for the parents to read about their sons and it's a thrill for the boys to be featured in photos. One of our boys was in a two page photo spread. We joked with him about being a centerfold.
We were also in the summer edition of American Scouting Digest, "Postcards From the Edge"
It's always nice to see your program in print.
YIS,
Cliff Golden
Scoutmaster Troop 33
DeKalb, Illinois
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Camporees are alive and well in our area.
We have a fall and spring camporee, with a Klondike Derby in the winter, and most troops also participate as staff in the Cuboree in late spring.
Our council runs a council-wide Camporall every 3 years. In October we had over 5,000 camp together for a weekend of fun and fellowship at DeKalb County's Sandwich Fairgrounds.
We have different troops take turn sponsoring our district camporees. Our troop website has camporee program links at: http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/9857/links.htm#camporee
Our troop has also sponsored a couple camporees that had night-time events.
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/9857/mission1.htm
Several other districts around the country have done similar camporees since.
I don't believe camporees are a thing of the past. We just need to keep things fresh and provide a quality program.
YIS,
Cliff Golden
Scoutmaster Troop 33
DeKalb, Illinois
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>>>>>>>>
The weight limit for horses is 200lbs if I am not mistaken.
>>>>>>>>
Actually the weight limit for riders is 200lbs.
The weight limit for horses is much higher. Most of the horses I've riden have been well over 1,000 pounds.
Seriously though, I wonder how much the height/weight requirements imposed by Philmont for backcountry hikers is a risk management issue linked to their insurance costs?
Ancient anecdote.
On my first Philmont trip as a Scout many many years ago, Philmont doctors didn't want to let my Scoutmaster on the trail. He wasn't overweight at all, but was 63 years old with a history of heart problems. His personal physician had OK'd his physical form.
They finally let him go on the trail and he did just fine. He was a tough old man.
A crew from Ohio that came out on the same train with us went home without one of their leaders. He died on the trail. There was also a Philmont camper who died just after we left the ranch. They quarantined thousands of Scouts on the ranch while investigating his death. That back in was 1970.
Deaths have occured from lightening and falls over the years. Philmont can be a very dangerous place.
I guess they're just doing what they can to manage some of the risk by setting certain limits on who can participate.
Cliff Golden
Scoutmaster Troop 33
DeKalb, Illinois
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As others have said, I would be very relunctant to camp overnight in a cave, unless it was a show cave that offered an organized program for cave camping.
I know of three options for commercial cave camping, one of which is in your area just to the north.
Blue Springs Caverns has an overnight program.
http://www.bluespringcaverns.com/Overnight.html
Cumberland Caverns in Tennessee has an overnight program.
http://www.cumberlandcaverns.com/Overnight%20Spelunking%20Tours.htm
Eagle Cave in Wisconsin has an overnight program.
http://www.eagle-cave.net/eagle%20cave%20web/pages/incave.htm
These are all programs that are catered to Scouting groups. My troop has done overnight cave camping and it is something unique and fun.
There are many great caving adventures in your part of the country. We mostly camp above ground and just visit caves during the day.
Another fun organized caving event your troop might enjoy in the Crawl-a-thon at Carter Caves State Park in Kentucky, January 28-30, 2005.
Here is a website on the Crawl-a-thon...
Our Troop 33 Caving Page is...
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/9857/caving.htm
Good luck to you.
YIS,
Cliff Golden
Scoutmaster Troop 33
DeKalb, Illinois
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Hi Myles,
I've never done a long trip down the Mississippi River. I can't really say that I have any great desire to do so either.
We have paddled from DeKalb, Illinois to Davenport, Iowa crossing the Mississippi River. Thats a 200 mile canoe route we did in 8 days, using the Kishwaukee and Rock Rivers. We averaged 25 miles/day paddling. We then switched to bicycles and continued 325 miles over 6 days to St Louis biking along the mighty Miss.
We have also done shorter trips on the Mississippi river around Prairie du Chein, Wisconsin.
We've paddled on the Missouri River in central Missouri and the upper Missouri River for 150 miles through Montana retracing Lewis & Clark. (fantastic trip BTW.)
As for the mighty Mississippi River, there is the annoyance of pleasure craft. Their wakes become tiring, and can really slow you down. The wake off barges are so large you become a part of them. Wing dams can be treacherous. The Lock & Dam system is not designed for canoeists, so understand you're a low priority.
Personal Water craft like jet-skis can really be a problem too. They sometimes get too close for comfort.
Camping can be problematic. Even if you find places where you can get permission to legally camp, there are other considerations. We've camped along the Mississipi River, and between the horns and lights of river barges, and the deafening sound of freight trains whose tracks parallel the river much of the way, it was not very easy getting a good night's sleep.
I know the romantic image of Huck Finn and Jim floating down the mighty Mississippi is alluring. But the modern day reality of the river is not quite as welcoming.
Below Cairo the barge traffic increases.
Still, with all the inherint problems associated with a float down the Mississippi, I guess a part of me really does envy your adventure.
I wish you a safe and exciting adventure.
Here is some further advice from people who've been there and done it...
http://www.motherearthnews.com/arc/5442/
Good luck!
YIS,
Cliff Golden
Scoutmaster Troop 33
DeKalb, Illinois
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I enjoyed competing in sports during high school and college. I also did Scouting during those years as well. We all set priorities for how we spend our time.
As a Scoutmaster I don't worry about competing with sports. I think we're on the same side. Both Scouting and sports are positive influences upon a boy. I'm here for the positive development of boys so I support their involvement in sports, band, theater, and the rest. It helps them become well rounded.
What Scouting is competing against is gangs, drugs, illiteracy, crime, violence, etc., etc.
Scouting is an all-year activity, we have no down time in our troop. We work to keep it the boys' program, they lead, they plan their calendar, it's their troop.
If a boy takes a few months off to play a sport or pursue some other interest, we're still there when he's done with it.
Scouting is an opportunity, not a cross to bear. I work with the boys that come down on Monday nights and on weekends. The boys who miss those opportunities will be back soon enough.
We should all be interested in the positive development of boys, within Scouting and beyond.
I support all the positive things in their lives.
I just presented an Eagle a couple weeks ago. He earned varsity letters in two sports and was co-captian of one. He was also involved with his church, a good student, had a part-time job, a girlfriend, and other interests, all while his parents were going through a divorce.
He is now entering the Navy and recently thanked me for the program he enjoyed in Scouting and said I had been like a second father to him. He said it really meant a lot to him to have Scouting as a place he could always turn to.
It should never be about Scouting verses some other activity. Don't put them in a position where they feel they have to make a choice or feel guilty for following their interests.
Don't turn Scouting into an obligation, but keep it an exciting opportunity where boys can grow and experience great things.
Remember, it's all about the boys.
YIS,
Cliff Golden
Scoutmaster Troop 33
DeKalb, Illinois
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Thankfully my troop never made Scouts sing for lost items and as long as I'm Scoutmaster it never will. I don't see anything positive in doing so. There's plenty of other things we can do for fun that's not done at anyone's expense.
If an item is lost, we return to the person who lost it. It's just something Scouts do. That's a very long standing tradition in Scouting.
When William D. Boyce became lost in a London fog, that unknown Scout didn't make him sing to be rescued. He did a good deed without reward, and the rest is history. I think that's how anything lost should be treated.
As for the Order of the Arrow Ordeal, it is an honor to be elected by your peers to become a candidate, and the Ordeal is a test or challenge that is intended to instill within a Scout the ideals of the Order of the Arrow. Each of the tests symbolize something, and that is all revealed to the candidates through ceremony.
Each candidate makes a conscious decision whether or not they wish to attend a fellowship and participate in the Ordeal weekend.
I think there is a difference between having challenging activities existing in Scouting and having hazing imposed upon people. One is meant to uplift and strengthen a Scout, while the other is meant to demean a person for someone else's amusement. Of course those things exist in varying degrees.
Singing is something you should enjoy around a campfire or dining hall with others, by a choice you have made. It shouldn't be a condition imposed for acquiring your own lost property.
If I lose my property I will not sing for it's return. If you have it and fail to return it to me, you may find yourself explaining/singing to the proper authorities.
Singing for lost items has no place in Scouting.
YIS,
Cliff Golden
Scoutmaster Troop 33
DeKalb, Illinois
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The chin-be-gota.org website has a blog, so when everything is up and running, hopefully there will be many stories.
I heard somewhere that Brian is an IT director with a company out in Arizona. It is good to hear that he is doing well.
YIS,
Cliff Golden
Scoutmaster Troop 33
DeKalb, Illinois
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There is a website under development at
www.chin-be-gota.org
John Bland worked as Program Director. He had a deep loud voice and a robust and distinctive laugh. He ran the campfire programs. If you met John, you'd definately remember him.
I reported John's death on Scouts-L at...
Troop 16 of Sycamore is still active and going strong. They just went to Alaska this summer.
Brian Bernhardt I definately remember. He was with Troop 45 from Sandwich, Illinois. I wrote a tribute to Brian on Scouts-L back in 1996.
http://www.scouter.com/archives/Scouts-L/199608/0396.asp
Brian was the kind of boy you always remember.
YIS,
Cliff Golden
Scoutmaster Troop 33
DeKalb, Illinois
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One of my former Scouts told me about these posts on Chin-Be-Gota.
I attended Chin-Be-Gota as a Scout in 1968, 1970, and 1971. I worked there as a staff member (Field Sports Director) in 1976 and 1977.
I took Scouts there as a Scoutmaster in 1978, 1979, 1980, 1982, 1984, and 1986. The camp closed after the 1986 camp season along with it's sister camp, Chief Shabbona Wilderness Camp near Lakewood, Wisconsin.
A group of former staff members recently got together at a funeral for a CBG staffer, John Bland. It was nice to talk of old days. John had served on staff in the late 60's, early 70's and again in the 80's. He was 55 when he died. He taught classes at Northern Illinois University and Kishwaukee College, and was among the most popular of teachers.
Someone talked about creating a website for Chin-Be-Gota, but as far as I know nothing has happened.
The main lodge area at CBG was initially purchased by former staff member, Mike Colwell. He allowed old Scouters to camp there and visit. He has since sold out and moved to Florida.
I haven't been there since that final season back in 1986. Someday I hope to stop by and see the place.
The campfire bowl along Baker Lake was one of my favorite places. The indians paddling across the lake with torches for the Order of the Arrow callout was a classic Scouting memory for so many thousands of boys over the years.
I was on the Council Camping Committee when the announcement was made that CBG had been sold. We were informed after the fact and the announcement was made just weeks before camp season. I was ready to create a new leaders guide and slide promo for the camp, and I was quietly told not to bother.
Reasons for its sale, as told to me, was the long distance to drive, camp only in use 3 months/year, capital expenses were looming (all the roofs needed replacement), etc. It was a business decision.
It was a decision that angered many people, myself included. CBG had a beautiful growth of trees, every variety of plant you could think of, and I had never found any poison ivy anywhere on the property.
I do miss that place. It holds a special place in my memory.
YIS,
Cliff Golden
Scoutmaster Troop 33
DeKalb, Illinois
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We did a half day rafting trip on the Ocoee River back in 1996 on our way to the Florida Keys.
1996 was the year of the Olympics in Atlanta, and since the Ocoee was the location for Olympic whitewater events, it was extra exciting for the boys (and Parents) to hear the river mentioned on the news.
We used USA Raft as an outfitter; www.usaraft.com
They did a good job and were very reasonably priced. We used the same company for rafting the New River gorge in West Virginia as well.
They say 1 in 9 will end up in the river during the course of a trip. We ended up with 3 for 9, two were adults, with me included.
It was an exciting trip.
Cliff Golden
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We don't have a written policy. We have general guidelines and apply them on an individual basis as needed.
Guests need to be eligible for membership for insurance purposes.
We don't allow guests at district sponsored events like Klondike Derby or Camporee, or council sponsored programs like Camporall or summer camp, nor on troop long term camp or high adventure.
Generally our guests don't attend overnight activities; just day activities. We do make exceptions to that.
When the activity is limited to availability of equipment, space, transportation, etc., we don't have guests.
In the case of former Scouts attending and bringing guests, I agree with other posters. It's having the guests of guests in attendance. Any guest would have a sponsor in our troop, unless it's a court of honor, open house, or other event where an open invitation is extended.
We try to manage membership. We've had 70-75 boys in the past, but prefer 30-40 boys, which is our current size. We don't turn boys away, but avoid recruiting after a point.
Guests can provide outreach to the community, recruitment for troop growth, or filling out a roster (i.e. group rates on a ski trip to lower costs).
You need to evaluate the purpose of the event and how guests fit into that purpose.
Cliff Golden
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Our troop has a uniform bank. Anyone in need of a uniform can have anything there free of charge. We ask that when they outgrow it, they donate it back for another boy to use.
We also have a former parent from our troop who sponsors a uniform exchange at her business. That way items are available to all units in the local communities to borrow or donate uniform parts. No money is exchanged. It's good PR for her business and increases the foot traffic in her store.
Then I have my network of people that pick up cheap uniform parts at garage or yard sales. Seasoned uniforms usually go pretty cheap.
As for sewing, I suggest the boys glue the patches on with Elmers glue first before going over it with needle and thread. The glue holds the patch in the correct position while sewing and later washes out in the laundry. The patches get on much straighter and better positioned if they're glued first.
I've seen some pretty interesting patch placements with boys sewing.
Cliff Golden
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We include the Eagle presentation as the highlight of a troop COH.
We start the Eagle presentation with a few words about the Eagle traditions within our troop, followed by lighting a candle for each Eagle presented dating from 1930. The Eagle's name and year is announced as each candle is lit. If present, they stand as their name is called. All those flickering candles look pretty impressive.
We ask any other Eagles present to stand. I talk about Eagle as being always; it's never you WERE an Eagle Scout, you will always be an Eagle Scout.
The Eagle candidate is escorted to the stage by two of our newest Scouts, a thrill for the new guys and to emphasize how far our Eagle has come since he was a new guy.
I talk about the Eagle Candidate, his Cub days, as a young Scout, leadership, awards, various adventures, with a few good stories that define his persona. I include some heartfelt words about how I've seen him grow through the program.
His parents are escorted to the stage. I present the Eagle award to the mother, who then presents it to her son. The Eagle presents the other pins to his parents. Eagle Oath, Eagle Charge, Eagle comments, etc. The Eagle lights his Eagle candle, which he takes home afterwards. A duplicate Eagle candle will be purchased to light in future Eagle COHs.
One year we had the 5th son of a family earn Eagle. At least one brother had been in the troop for each of the past 19 years. The mother had been recently diagnosed with breast cancer. We opened the program with 12 Scouts each coming forward with a rose and describing a point of the Scout Law. After his talk, he left his rose in a vase. After 12 Scouts had completed the Scout Law, the SPL called the mother forward and presented the vase of 12 roses to her, explaining they symbolized the ideals that for 19 years she had supported for her sons and all the Scouts in the troop.
Her cancer is now in remission and her oldest grandson is a 2nd year Scout in our troop with another grandson in Cubs heading our way. She still attends our COHs.
Whatever you do for your Eagle Scout at his COR, just make it sincere and the rest will fall into place.
Cliff Golden
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We're heading for a short 3 1/2 trip today to do some dog sledding and snowshoeing around Lake Superior, though I don't count it as a high adventure, it's a taste of high adventure and we'll have a lot of younger boys along.
#1
Over spring break we'll do some houseboating in Missouri and either canoeing the Buffalo river or some backpacking on the Ozark trail. The boys will be finalizing the details very soon.
#2
This summer we have a trip to the Rocky Mountains for backpacking, rafting, and mountain biking. Late July.
#3
We also have a trip to Hawaii planned for June. Details are still being debated.
YIS,
Cliff Golden
Scoutmaster Troop 33
DeKalb, Illinois
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***** johnsned QUOTE*****
Cliff, sorry for dragging you in on this. I never thought that posting an amusing story would cause such brouhaha. Someone I met a Philmont posted your story on a yahoo groups and I thought people on this forum would enjoy the story, so I took, the liberty of posting it here. I had no idea that I would be causing such a controversy.
*****END QUOTE*****
johnsned,
No problem.
I was surprised to see it here. Sometimes I find things I've written here and there on the Internet. In Scouting I just figure we share whatever we have. I don't mind.
I thought since there was a discussion in progress, I should join in. I didn't have to, that was my decision. My cyber cuts and bruises will heal quickly enough.
It's been a good vigorous discussion. People have made some good points. You have many interesting Scouters on this forum. I enjoyed seeing the various personalities come across my computer screen. Many of them have made me smile. (I mean that in a good way.)
Once this horse is dead, and I think at the rate we've been beating it, it shouldn't be much longer, I may go away. I'm becoming too distracted from other things I need to be doing. Time is limited.
It's been interesting though.
YIS,
Cliff Golden
Scoutmaster Troop 33
DeKalb, Illinois
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Bob White,
You said "please allow me to answer the questions you posed to me".
Actually Bob, you didn't. Not all of them.
You said, "the philosophy of the BSA is that in order to be effective in teaching the lessons of the Law and Oath you need to use the other 7 methods. All of them. Completely".
I said I agreed with using all 8 methods of Scouting. The problem is defining what is completely? I followed that with a string of quick examples. No Bob, my real question was how do you define using the 8 methods COMPLETELY? You skipped that one.
YIS,
Cliff Golden
Scoutmaster Troop 33
DeKalb, Illinois
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****Fscouter quote*****
Why do you feel a need to lash out against correct uniforming, and defend improper uniforming practices?
*****end quote*****
Have I lashed out at correct uniforming?
Go through my posts and quote where I've lashed out. I don't recall that. I may have lashed out at those who are preoccupied with the uniform. That's a totally different thing. Uniforming is a method of Scouting.
I jokingly lashed out at the "Uniform Police" in my original post, and that was in a joking manner.
Why is it you feel so terribly offended by that?
This weekend I attended our district's Klondike Derby and Vigil Fire. I wore official Scout trousers, web belt, Scout shirt, and red wool jacket. I also wore Yukon boots, poly long johns and undershirt, wool socks with synthetic liners, and a polar fleece hat and gloves.
Was that good enough? Without Scout socks or Scout hat, should I have stayed home?
There were many that dressed for the weather without any regard to the uniform.
Given your "zipper being down" analogy, I could have spent my day going around informing others of their uniform deficiencies. Instead I chose to work with the boys. They had a fantastic time doing all the events, regardless of their uniform level. I feel my time was well invested.
There are photos in Boys Life and the Scout Handbook of boys having fun in Scouting without uniforms. The point is that it happens. We wake up the next day and the BSA is still standing. It didn't crumble overnight because a boy didn't wear a uniform.
The survey I referred to in an earlier post depicted reality. Most troops don't have perfect uniforming, but all in the survey had some level of uniforming. The uniform method doesn't only exist in perfection. Most of the other 7 methods don't either. We use all 8 methods in Scouting. Few troops I've seen achieve perfection with all 8 methods.
Some Scouters demand perfection in Uniform, but not the other 7 methods. I see that as hypocrisy.
Wearing a complete uniform verses paying taxes is a poor analogy.
Now if the U.S. Government decided that citizens were no longer required to pay taxes, rather they "encouraged" taxes as a "method" of government, and if you couldn't pay your full taxes, that's OK, you can just pay it as completely as possible. Then your tax analogy might be a valid comparison to the uniform policies of the BSA.
Since you've expressed such a deep concern, let me put your mind at ease.
My taxes are paid and my fly is zipped.
YIS,
Cliff Golden
Scoutmaster Troop 33
DeKalb, Illinois
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Hey Bob White,
I tried to engage you in discussion over the purposes of the Scouting uniform. You referred me to resources not wanting to enter that discussion. OK.
I was surprised you referenced Venturing materials. I am both a Venturing Advisor and a Scoutmaster. Uniform is not a method of Venturing. Venturing has seven Methods LEADERSHIP - GROUP ACTIVITIES - ADULT ASSOCIATION - RECOGNITION - THE IDEALS - HIGH ADVENTURE - TEACHING OTHERS.
For the sake of brevity, I'll quote the first sentence in the BSA's Online Venturing Fast Start Training section athttp://www.scouting.org/venturing/faststart/uniform1.html
*****quote from BSA Venturing Fast Start Training*****
The uniform, if any, is the choice of the crew.
*****end quote*****
That reference doesn't support your argument.
*****quote Bob White*****
I posted that the unit does not have the authority to alter the Scout uniform. You replied, " Did I say otherwise?"
Yes, you did. You posted, Regarding the implementation of the uniform method, some troops only require a shirt, others shirt and pants, some add the belt, some might require Scout socks"
*****end quote*****
There's a significant difference between implementing the Uniform Method and altering the uniform. The wearing of incomplete uniforms is not altering the uniform according to the BSA.
*****quote BSA*****
It is OK if a scout does not own a complete uniform; he is only required to wear what he has as completely and correctly as possible.
*****end quote*****
Haven't we already hiked down that path?
*****quote Bob White*****
Would you tell a scout that they only have to know half the points of the Scout Law since they are only asked to wear half the uniform?
*****end quote*****
To earn the Scout badge requirement #7 reads Understand and agree to live by the Scout Oath or Promise, Law, motto, and slogan, and the Outdoor Code.
To earn the Tenderfoot badge requirement #7 reads Repeat from memory and explain in your own words the Scout Oath, Law, motto, and slogan.
Knowledge of the Scout Law is a requirement in Scout and Tenderfoot. The BSA does not require a Scout to own a uniform. So that's the difference; knowledge of the Scout Law is contained within a BSA requirement, while owning a uniform is not.
*****quote Bob White*****
The philosophy of the BSA is that in order to be effective -n teaching the lessons of the Law and Oath you need to use the other 7 methods. All of them. Completely.
*****end quote*****
I agree with using all 8 methods of Scouting. The problem is defining what is completely? Does every Scout have to earn Eagle, does everyone have to climb a mountain at Philmont, does everyone have to wear the full field uniform at all Scout functions? They don't in Boys Life. Is that wrong? Is that using the uniform method incompletely? Who's to say? We all do our best.
*****Bob White quote*****
Let's just agree that we disagree. I feel that the number of scouters worried about the exact location of a service star is but a fraction of a percent of all the volunteers and not worth the energy to write about, and that the uniform plays an important role in reaching the aims of scouting.
*****end quote*****
Well Bob White, we agree and we disagree, and we agree to disagree.
Actually I'll go along with your quote above. I'm sure if we sat down together I'm sure we would find we hold much more in common than our differences would suggest.
Some say if a troop is wearing partial uniforms, they are abusing or ignoring the Uniform Method. I say if they're fostering citizenship, developing character, and promoting fitness, that boys are having fun and experiencing positive growth, then that's OK. It's not perfect, but it's OK.
Some demand perfection in one method, then seem fairly indifferent in others.
I've got to go now.
There's a group of Scouts waiting for their Scoutmaster.
YIS,
Cliff Golden
Scoutmaster Troop 33
DeKalb, Illinois
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*****quote Fscouter*****
cliffgolden - you make a pretty convincing case for ditching the uniform. Excuse me if I continue to wear it and encourge others to wear it. The subject seems to be a hot button for you. I'd suggest you donate those several field uniforms you have in the closet to an inner city troop where they would be appreciated. "Me thinks thou doth protest too much."
*****end quote*****
Hello Fscouter,
I don't make any case for ditching the uniform; it's one of the 8 methods.
You don't need to be excused; you have my blessings for wearing the uniform properly and encouraging others to wear it. I will continue to do the same. I fully support that notion.
I make a case against the foaming idiots that attack anyone with less than perfect adherence to uniforming. It's a method that we continually work toward achieving.
There are special circumstances where the uniform might be suspended, like inner city programs for at-youth risk. Do some research on it, those are council sponsored programs, not mine.
Hot button? Yes you're probably right. I may be leaning toward the antithesis of the Uniform Police. I'll have to try to take it down a notch or two and be more diplomatic in my approach. I have to remind myself my audience is fellow Scouters who care deeply about the program. Those who know me would tell you I am a very nice quiet easy-going person. Like anyone, I do have my hot buttons.
Donate my uniforms? Actually I usually donate my uniforms to boys in my own troop that are in need, and loan them out to other adults as needed. Charity starts at home. Unfortunately not too many boys are my size.
"Me thinks thou doth protest too much." If you're trying to imply something with your Shakespearean quote, it might be more courteous/courageous to speak plainly and directly. This thread has been about uniforming and I have argued my case. If I sometimes seem to have a "take no prisoners" attitude toward that, then I apologize. My intent is not to be in "attack mode", I have been defending my posting at the origin of this thread.
I assume you have no comment regarding the photo content of Boys Life or the Scout Handbook.
YIS,
Cliff Golden
Scoutmaster Troop 33
DeKalb, Illinois
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*****FOG quote*****
BTW, there are many reasons that the survey that you referenced is flawed but one reason leaps off the page, no unit may require a uniform.
*****end quote*****
Hey FOG,
I agree, there are several reasons the survey is flawed. The person wasn't attempting a scientific survey, just an informal one.
"No unit may require a uniform" is absolutely correct. Most units out there don't understand that though.
The only method I require is Ideals, the other 7 methods I try to encourage in my troop. I am more successful with some boys than others, and with some Methods more than others.
On our honor, we do our best.
YIS,
Cliff Golden
Scoutmaster Troop 33
DeKalb, Illinois
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Hey FOG,
Your "big picture person" is actually a "no picture person". If they're only in it for their kid to make Eagle, blow off the rules, and don't get the Methods, they probably don't even realize there's a picture at all.
Now your "little picture person" is actually a "big picture person". They see the mosaic. You see, "little picture people" can't see the mosaic.
You keep working on those picture people terms though, you'll get it eventually.
You must have missed the optional "Picture People Term Workshop" at 21st Century Woodbadge.
YIS,
Cliff Golden
Scoutmaster Troop 33
DeKalb, Illinois
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Hey Fscouter,
The survey I referenced had the majority of the troops wearing partial uniforms. I believe that's different from not wearing any uniform. They are using the Uniform Method, just not as well as some other troops. Perhaps the purpose of the survey is to examine the levels of various troops in accomplishing the Uniform Method. It's not my survey, so I'm only speculating.
If it were a camping survey instead, and some troops only camped during half the year, would they be accused of not using the Outdoor Method?
So would car camping be equivalent to a partial uniform, with high adventure camping equivalent to a full uniform. How do you evaluate Outdoor Method?
Do you grade the other Methods with the same exacting harshness as Uniform Method? Are you putting more importance on Uniform Method than the rest?
Various troops operate at various levels in all methods. Some have Eagle Scouts every year, some have never produced an Eagle. Because a unit isn't performing at each Method at the highest possible level doesn't mean the Method is not being employed and boys are not benefiting from the program. The aims can be met even when the unit operates less than perfect in all 8 Methods.
You ask why would any Scouter that supposedly supports the BSA program trivialize one of the eight methods? I really can't think of any reasons, can you?
By overindulging in one Method, does that not trivialize the other 7?
You ask why does the minimalist approach to uniforming support Scouting and further the program?
Well, there's a tough one.
Maybe in the inner city doing an outreach program might be more effective with a t-shirt approach to bring in more at-risk youth. I could see that.
During the depression, they suspended uniforming in many units. There are still be some suffering financial hardship out there. Our expensive uniforms might discourage people in the lower economic levels from becoming involved at all.
I suppose there could be many other reasons.
Fscouter, I have an interesting project for you to do, if you're up to the challenge.
Let's go to some official Scouting resources. See how many photos in Boys Life this month depict Scouts in full uniform and how many are depicted in less than full uniform? Then do the same with the Official Scout Handbook.
I predict you'll find most boys are depicted "not in uniform".
Maybe you could theorize for us how that supports Scouting and furthers the program?
After all, Boys Life and the Official Scout Handbook exist to support Scouting and further the program, don't they?
Well, some food for thought in any case.
BTW, I do own several field uniforms and all the insignia are correctly placed.
YIS,
Cliff Golden
Scoutmaster Troop 33
DeKalb, Illinois(This message has been edited by cliffgolden)
Are there any cases where the ACLU supported Scouts?
in Issues & Politics
Posted
I believe the program in St Louis is probably a Learning for Life program.
Learning for Life is a wholly owned subsidiary of the BSA. Here is their website...
http://www.learning-for-life.org/lfl/
I think the BSA has tried to be inclusive and better serve a changing society by creating a new program called Learning for Life (LFL). This program has inclusive membership so atheists and avowed homosexuals can be members as well.
Their traditional programs of Cubs Scouts, Boy Scouts, and Venturing still maintain the past membership policies. The BSA works with sponsors such as major churches to support traditional values.
Overall, the BSA serves everyone through one program or another. There remain those that continue relentless attacks upon the BSA.
As for the ACLU fighting against the BSA in Dales vs BSA, that SCOTUS decision was based upon the BSA's constitutional right of expressive association. Each side presented their case, both based on constitutional rights. Why would the ACLU side with one constitutional right over another?
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/boyscouts.html
The media portrayed the case as being about the BSA winning the right to discriminate; rather than about the BSA defending their right to expressive association and preserving their expressed message to their membership.
YIS,
Cliff Golden
Scoutmaster Troop 33
DeKalb, Illinois