cliffgolden

Bob,

 

What can I say?

 

There are big picture people and little picture people.

 

The big picture people see the overall Scouting program and how it works. The little picture people see the little pieces and become preoccupied with the details, unable to comprehend the larger overall structure.

 

Uniform police are usually little picture people. They focus on whether the patches are 3/8 of an inch in the wrong direction. They see the Uniform as a goal to achieve, rather than a method for building citizenship, character, and fitness.

 

They see the Uniform as a Goal rather than a Method. "UNIFORMING IS A METHOD, NOT A GOAL!" Sound familiar?

 

I don't believe Uniform is more important than the other Methods of Scouting. Some Scouters treat it that way. That was the main point of my post. I am sorry if that didn't appear clear enough for you.

 

I'll spend the remainder of this post answering your specific concerns.

 

****Bob White quote****

I think as long as we agree that it was a silly story followed by a personal opinion with little relation to the actual purpose of the Scout uniforms as explained in the resources of the BSA, then I have no problem with what you posted.

****Bob White end quote****

 

It was a silly story followed by a personal opinion, we agree on that.

 

You feel my description of the uniform has little relation to the actual purpose of the Scout uniform. I'm sorry, but that I have to dispute.

 

I highlighted 7 points made in the post about the uniform, and added 4 more obvious ones.

 

I don't see your list. Please provide me your list on that subject. If I've missed some major areas, you would be doing me a favor to share that information. I always do my best to try to share Scouting information with others. That what this forum is all about, isn't it?

 

*****Bob White quote*****

If you intended for the silly story to have a purpose in teaching the use of the uniform without actually referring to the purposes it is intended for, then I have to disagree with what you wrote.

*****end quote*****

 

No Bob, surprisingly enough, it was not intended as a teaching tool for the use of the Uniform Method.

 

Did my post strike you as a training syllabus?

 

*****Bob White quote*****

If it is your intention to deliver today's scouting program based on the methods of decades ago, that is your personal decision. It is doubtful that it that will be effective with todays youth, but that is an individual unit problem and not a BSA program problem.

*****end quote*****

 

I provided information on methods only as an interest piece, and stated such. I do believe seeing Scouting as a movement through time, and learning of its history gives people a better perspective of its evolution and development. I'm sure you value history and tradition.

 

If you question whether my involvement with today's youth is ineffective, I can assure you I have been effectively working with hundreds of youth for over 28 years as a Scoutmaster.

 

*****Bob White****

As you correctly posted none is more important than another, and so conversely none is less important than another. Yet, the original posts leaves the impression that uniforming is merely about dressing alike, and is only one of eight methods. Actually, as I mentioned it is in fact one of only eight. Making the use of all eight vital in successfully delivering a scouting program.

****end quote****

 

I simply stated national's policy, and Dan confirmed it in another post.

 

I never said I agreed with it.

 

I believe the Ideals Method is the most important one.

 

You can hike the trails of Philmont without a uniform and without earning advancement, without patrols, and it can still be a quality Scouting experience.

 

When you abandon the ideals of Scouting, it is no longer Scouting. It doesn't matter how many badges you've earned or how well uniformed you are, when you abandon the ideals you've abandoned Scouting.

 

Ideals are more important than Uniforms. What you wear in your heart is far more important than what you hang in your closet.

 

Therefore, I don't believe all 8 Methods are equal. I do however agree that all 8 Methods are important.

 

*****Bob White*****

You then give more importance to your opinion of what the uniform means by trivializing the BSA reasons with the comment "It contains the standard Uniform Method paragraph we've all read 100 times."

*****end quote*****

 

You wanted a reference, so I quoted a basic uniform reference. I didn't use any references in my original piece.

 

My comment wasn't meant to trivialize the BSA position; I simply thought I was quoting the obvious. That same paragraph is listed in virtually every major Scouting publication and training program. I have read it 100 times. I assume any Scouter who's been in the program for any length of time would have read it 100 times as well. If I read something 100 times, it's because it's important, not because it's trivial.

 

*****Bob White quote*****

Should not the BSA have the power to define its own methods? If you were to refer to the Boy Scout Handbook, Scoutmaster Handbook and Scoutmaster Leqader Specific Training,

you would learn additional reasons for the uniform that you have failed to mention.

*****end quote*****

 

In my last post I specifically asked you to tell me your additional reasons for the uniform.

 

Thus far you haven't been forthcoming with a checklist.

 

As for methods, who ever said the BSA shouldn't define their own?

 

*****Bob White quote****

Think about the role the uniform plays as a supporting element of Advancement, Patrol Method, Citizenship Development, the Ideals, and the Outdoors. In addition it's effects on behavior, grooming, and self-image.

*****end quote*****

 

I understand the "supporting element" of the Uniform Method. The methods are designed to support each other. Keep in mind though, not all 8 Methods are in use at all times.

 

Troops will be achieving varying levels with various Methods. Some are higher in leadership development, other have great adults who can relate exceptionally well to youth, others might have an outstanding advancement program, and so on. Everyone does the best they can using the 8 Methods.

 

I don't like people attacking troops or Scouts or leaders. I don't like Uniform Police, which is what my original post was all about. Different troops work in different ways.

 

*****Bob White quote*****

The uniform is as important as any other method in achieving the aims of scouting. If you want to point a spotlight at the very few individuals who focus more on the the orientation of a knot rather than on the purpose of the method I agree. but to write-off the importance of the uniform as a method of scouting , which is how the original posts reads, is an inaccurate representation of the value of the uniform.And that was what bothered me.

****end quote****

 

My post focused on the few individuals. I don't believe I "wrote off" the uniform, what I "wrote off" was the Uniform Police.

 

I disagree with your interpretation of my post.

 

*****Bob White quote****

One last comment. In reference to your original post on this thread. Yes, how the methods are used will vary from unit to unit, but how the uniform is used and worn is controlled by BSA national policies.

*****end quote****

 

Did I say otherwise?

 

*****Bob White quote*****

The BSA is very specific that a unit, or individual, has no auhtority to determine what the uniform will consist of other than the options given them by the BSA. So while your unit can choose whether or not to wear a neckerchief, they cannot make the determination that in their unit a Scout Shirt will constitute a uniform. Read the Insignia Guide 2003-2005.

*****end quote*****

 

*****quote NATIONAL POLICY*****

"A boy is not required to have a uniform in order to be a Boy Scout. However, troop leaders should set a good example by wearing the uniform themselves and by encouraging each Scout to acquire and wear a uniform."

 

"The official uniforms of the Boy Scouts of America are those authorized by the organization's National Executive Board and are described in current handbooks, catalogues, and other official publications of the BSA."

"No alterations of, or additions to, the official uniform may be made by any Scout, leader, or Scouting official without permission from the National Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America."

*****end quote NATIONAL POLICY*****

 

Where does it say a Scout is not allowed to wear a Scout shirt without official pants?

 

Wearing jeans is not altering any uniform part or adding to the uniform. It is simply an incomplete uniform. The BSA says a Scout should wear the uniform as complete and correct as possible. If he only has a shirt, he can only wear a shirt.

 

Now, given that statement, I have never said wearing a complete uniform is bad. I personally own multiple sets of complete official field uniforms with all insignia properly placed.

 

I challenge you to point out anywhere I've made any statement against wearing a complete field uniform.

 

I've only spoken in defense of those who don't have complete uniforms. I vehemently dislike Scouters who look down on those boys and judge them harshly.

 

I've also spoken in disgust about those who believe the Uniform method is higher than other methods and treat it as a Goal rather than a Method.

 

There are major differences in those things.

 

*****Bob White quote****

I agree that requiring a scout to have uniform pants to advance is a violation of the BSA advancement policies, but requiring him to be in as complete and correct uniform as possible is IN the policies.

*****end quote*****

 

Thank you for that Bob. We finally agree.

 

I apologize for yet another lengthy post.

 

YIS,

Cliff Golden

Scoutmaster Troop 33

DeKalb, Illinois

(This message has been edited by cliffgolden)

 

As a side note on the uniform issue.

 

Here is an interesting survey done by someone on the Scouts-L listerv. It polls 21 troops and 1 crew about their unit uniforming policies.

 

http://www.scouttroop.org/oh/bsa/456/uniforms.pdf

 

YIS,

Cliff Golden

Scoutmaster Troop 33

DeKalb, Illinois

Hello Bob White,

 

You asked for my light, and I gladly share.

 

I didn't use any reference material for the original post at the beginning of this thread.

 

It is a just a silly fictional story followed by a few paragraphs reflecting my own personal feelings, for better or worse.

 

I wasn't intending to publish a treatise, I was just posting an e-mail. I was hoping it might cause a few smiles, and a few wrinkles of gray matter.

 

It was just a collection of thoughts from my head and heart after experiencing 42 years of Scouting.

 

Since you asked for a reference, I looked this up just now on the national BSA site. It contains the standard Uniform Method paragraph we've all read 100 times.

 

http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=ba

 

*****start quote*****

Uniform

The uniform makes the Boy Scout troop visible as a force for good and creates a positive youth image in the community. Boy Scouting is an action program, and wearing the uniform is an action that shows each Boy Scout's commitment to the aims and purposes of Scouting. The uniform gives the Boy Scout identity in a world brotherhood of youth who believe in the same ideals. The uniform is practical attire for Boy Scout activities and provides a way for Boy Scouts to wear the badges that show what they have accomplished."

*****end quote*****

 

O.K.

I showed you my light, now you show me yours.

 

YIS,

Cliff Golden

Scoutmaster Troop 33

DeKalb, Illinois

*****quote--Bob White*****

""For fairness sake, I went back and reread the original post. I walk away unchanged. As a silly story (it structurally isn't a joke), it's fine up until the last two paragraphs. The writers point is to exagerate the humor in order to emphasize his point of the last two paragraphs.

 

The problem is that his summary of the purpose of the uniform is greatly lacking. The sense of belonging that he points to as the only pupose of the uniform, at least the only one he offers, is but a sliver of the pupose of the uniform as a method in scouting.

 

There lies my problem. He brushes off the uniform method as an unimportant factor in achieving the aims, and it is not. He fails to mention any of the other reasons for the uniform, either by choice or lack of knowledge. It leaves a very mistaken immpression on the purpose and use of the uniform method.""

*****end quote--Bob White*****

 

Maybe Bob didn't read very carefully, or maybe I'm just completely missing the boat in what I wrote. Taking one of the later paragraphs and breaking it down into points, this is basically what I said.

 

**

"Our Uniform should be about..."

1. a bridge bringing people together

2. a reminder of the ideals we hold

3. a commitment to an Oath and set of Laws

4. a pride in what we are a part of

5. an outward symbol of good to the community

6. For many people that uniform stands for hope

7. uniform has come to stand for an organization

 

"A uniform can accomplish all of those things even if the patches aren't placed perfectly or the pants don't match."

**

 

Now a few obvious points I neglected to include might be:

8. place to wear the badges & show accomplishments

9. erasing different income levels

10. an action showing commitment to the aims and purposes of Scouting

11. pride in the troop you belong to

 

I think # 8 is certainly true.

 

With #9, designer athletic shoes and getting dropped off in a Lexus can easily void that.

 

I think #10 is mostly covered in #2 & #3.

 

Then #11 can be accomplished by a great program as well. I feel being proud of what you do is more important than being proud of how you look.

 

I am always anxious to learn more about the Scouting program. Part of the game of Scouting is continually learning new things.

 

If the first 7 items are but a sliver of what the Uniform Method is about, I pray that someone can shed some light upon my ignorance? Open the doors of knowledge so that I might be saved.

 

I yearn to learn.

 

Oh Bob White, I await your light.

 

YIS,

Cliff Golden

Scoutmaster Troop 33

DeKalb, Illinois(This message has been edited by cliffgolden)

Dan we are indeed neighbors.

 

We usually stop in Lily Lake at least once a year bicycling on the Great Western Trail. We drive through there numerous times on our way to somewhere else.

 

YIS,

Cliff Golden

Scoutmaster Troop 33

DeKalb, Illinois

 

The change from Adult Male Association to Adult Association was precipitated by the removal of gender specific leadership positions.

 

As of 1989 women could become Scoutmasters, Asst Scoutmasters, and a few other Pack positions. Prior to that only men could serve in those positions. When they removed the gender restrictions from those positions they modified the methods accordingly.

 

As for the order of the methods in the listing, I've always understood them to be listed in random order, but I can't point to any specific source that to verify that as fact.

 

I think some people might place a higher priority on some methods over others. I don't know of any official hierarchy though.

 

YIS,

Cliff Golden

Scoutmaster Troop 33

DeKalb, Illinois

 

Hey FOG, good catch. I shouldn't cite things from the top of my head. As you say, research is always best.

 

As for the Scoutmasters Handbook, it outlines the Methods we use in Scouting. Those methods have changed from time to time. In 1962 FOG would have been using the 5th Edition, which does list the Uniform as #8 as stated. Here's a quick summary.

 

Uniform was listed as a method in:

 

3rd Edition 1936

4th Edition 1947

5th Edition 1959

7th Edition 1981

8th Edition 1990

 

Uniform was not listed as a method in:

 

Scoutmastership by Baden-Powell

1st Edition 1913

2nd Edition 1920

6th Edition 1972

 

The uniform has come and gone as a Method over the years. That's neither here nor there, since it's 2004 and we are currently using the Uniform Method in Scouting.

 

I always hear the sports analogy as a reason for buying the full uniform. People can argue over that. Another analogy might include policemen who after reaching a certain level discard their uniform to become plain clothes detectives. It doesn't diminish their crime-fighting abilities.

 

We are neither a sports team nor a police department. We are members of the Boy Scouts of America.

 

I would rather see an anology of the Uniform Method vs other methods of Scouting.

 

I see too many single out the Uniform Method and seem to treat it with much higher importance than other methods. Uniform and Advancement are the easiest to measure, and seem to be the Methods that in my view seem to be elevated to Goals by some people.

 

I have seen "merit badge mill troops" that worship full uniforming. Though they barely get out and camp, and when they do, there has to be a merit badge class attached to it. Scouting suddenly isn't a game anymore, they've turned into a resume building program.

 

I see that as losing sight of the true aims of Scouting.

 

Also...

 

Just for fun, here is another summary of the Methods of Scouting over the years. I present it only as something historical that I think is interesting. It's that "research thing".

 

Scoutmastership by Baden-Powell

I) Boy Training;

II) Character Training;

III) Physical Health and Development;

IV) Self-Improvement for Making a Career;

V) Service for Others (Chivalry and Self-Sacrifice the Basis of Religion).

 

Scoutmasters Handbook

1st Edition 1913

1) A Clear Plan, Well Thought Out, Progressive in its Stages

2) The Leader Should Tell the Boys What the Game is and How it is to be Played

3) Application of Self-Government

4) The Scout Master as a Real Leader

5) Differences, "Scraps," and Misunderstandings

6) Rules and Infringements of Rules

 

Scoutmasters Handbook

2nd Edition 1920

1) Play

2) Competition

3) Dramatization

4) Experiment

5) Observation

6) Demonstration

7) Recitation

8) Lecture

9) Book Study

 

Scoutmasters Handbook

3rd Edition 1936

1) The Boy---Individual, Patrol, Troop

2) Leadership---Trained Volunteer--In Uniform

3) Activity---Achievement with Recognition

4) Organization---Institutional...

5) Scout Oath and Law--Ideals of Service

 

Scoutmasters Handbook

4th Edition 1947

1. A Game, NOT a Science

2. Scout Patrol

3. Boy Leadership

4. Scoutmaster

5. Committee & Council

6. Adventure in the Out-of-Doors

7. Advancement);

8. Scout Uniform

9. Scout Law

10. Oath, Service, Good Turns

 

 

Scoutmasters Handbook

5th Edition 1959

1. A Game, NOT a Science

2. Scout Patrol

3. Boy Leadership

4. Scoutmaster

5. Committee & Council

6. Adventure in the Out-of-Doors

7. Advancement);

8. Scout Uniform

9. Scout Law

10. Oath, Service, Good Turns

 

 

Scoutmasters Handbook

6th Edition 1972

1) Scouting Ideals;

2) Patrols;

3) Advancement;

4) Adult Male Association;

5) Outdoor Program;

6) Leadership Development;

7) Personal Growth.

 

 

Scoutmasters Handbook

7th Edition 1981

1) Ideals;

2) Patrol Method;

3) Outdoors;

4) Advancement;

5) Adult Male Association;

6) Uniform;

7) Leadership Training;

8) Personal Growth.

 

 

Scoutmasters Handbook

8th Edition 1990

1) Ideals

2) Patrols

3) Outdoors

4) Advancement

5) Personal Growth

6) Adult Association;

7) Leadership Development

8) The Uniform

 

 

YIS,

Cliff Golden

Scoutmaster Troop 33

DeKalb, Illinois(This message has been edited by cliffgolden)

Hello to all,

 

Forgive my late entry into this discussion, but I just now happened across this group on Scouter.com, so I thought I would join in.

 

As the author of the original uniform police story which was posted on Scouts-L on January 16, I thought I could respond to some peoples comments or concerns, if there are any.

 

The context of a discussion on Scouts-L prior to my post dealt with a Scout that was being denied a BOR for Life rank because he didn't own Scout pants. They wouldn't schedule his Life BOR unless he was in full uniform, in effect adding a requirement to attaining the Life rank.

 

That is the mentality I was responding to in my post. I attempted to use humor and have some fun.

 

The final points of my post were meant to deal with the implementation of Scouting's methods. The BSA does not mandate specifically how those 8 methods will be handled by any individual troop. That is left up to the troop itself. Each troop has it's own traditions in implementing the methods of Scouting within the BSA's official policies and guidelines.

 

For example, in some troops outdoor method might include high adventure, or not. Others might do 2-4 trips each month, some troops might not attend summer camp, or do their own long term program. Quality Unit status only requires 6 highlight outdoor events (which is pretty minimal). Troops provide a variety of programs while implementing the outdoor method.

 

Regarding the implementation of the uniform method, some troops only require a shirt, others shirt and pants, some add the belt, some might require Scout socks. Neckerchiefs are required by some and not others, in various colors and styles. Some require a Scout hat, others do not. Those that require a hat, have several options to choose from.

 

When do you wear the uniform? Some troops only require it at Courts of Honor and formal events, others at all troop meetings. Some wear troop t-shirts during summer meetings. Some wear the uniform while traveling, others wear it at all times during all activities, while some others don't wear it when camping. Some still grieve the loss of the official "Buster Brown Scout shoes".

 

The point is each troop does what works best for them following their own traditions. The national council does not dictate each unit's program.

 

As a result, the Uniform Method is not implemented very uniformly.

 

No where in my post do I propose we do away with the Uniform Method. (Though I would point out to some that the Uniform Method was added in 1967, prior to that we had only 7 Methods in Scouting.)

 

My point is that the purpose of the Uniform Method isn't about dressing up boys in matching outfits, with perfectly placed insignia. There's more to it than that.

 

I'll leave it there for now.

 

I don't have a lot of time for Scouts-L, let alone another forum, so I don't know how much posting I'll be doing here.

 

I just thought it would be interesting to interact with some of you after reading your postings.

 

BTW, I apologize for the length of this.

 

YIS,

Cliff Golden

Scoutmaster Troop 33

DeKalb, Illinois