Achilleez

cubbingcarol, Common, the world isn't run on parental philosophy. Terrorism is a very real and very dangerous threat. Terrorist operations occur all over the world and they don't worry over what Joe-Westerner thinks about them being in a country that isn't theirs. So in order to effectively counteract it, one must be equally ruthless and brutal and smart and pre-emptive and not be controlled by the fact that fuzzy-hearted people don't think they should be invading the privacy of others. America cannot confine its anti-terrorist efforts to within its own borders when most terrorist operati

"They must face these ugly truths: 1) the terrorist threat is real, 2) it is a long-term problem, and 3) Europe is as much a target as America. " That is exactly correct and exactly the point. America needs to work with Europe and Asia against terrorism, not separately from. "The power of the U.S. military will not dissolve that threat." Yet the power of the U.S. military has already successfully dissolved, much of the power and influence of terrorist operatives in Afghanistan. I beleive the entire point of Bush's campaign against terrorism IS to use the U.S. military in exactly

Rooster7, I would have thought that you of all people might be able to see past the political mud to the real issue, that is, the reduction of the U.S.'s capability to counteract terrorist operations. What does it matter whether it was Republicans, Democrats, or the Communist Party of America who does it? You can forget all the people who still like to say the U.S. is imperialistic and trying to force assimillation because it's all political bull****. OGE, I have seen plenty of TV coverage about Punta Gorda not to mention it covering the front page of the Kitchener-Waterloo Reco

OldGreyEagle, It isn't a popularity contest. If you are aiming to effectively counteract terrorism then a global network of allies and military presence is necessary. Should the unpopularity of the war in Iraq force a decision on a matter like this?

By Ronald D. Asmus Harry Truman must be turning over in his grave. The planned withdrawal of U.S. troops from Europe and Asia that U.S. President George W. Bush announced last week, if allowed to stand, could lead to the demise of the United States' key allieances across the globe, including the one that Truman considered his greatest foreign accomplishment: NATO. Bush proposes something that generations of U.S. diplomats and soldiers fought to prevent and that its adversaries sought and unsuccessfully to achieve: radical reduction of U.S. political and military influence on the Europ

Jason, Please cry me a lake and then drown in it

Sitting in the seat of God entails only that you talk alot like you know what your talking about. Anything past that becomes irrelevant.

How someone can respect a religion while simultaneously thinking that every single person in it is fundamentally wrong and is going to hell is something I may never understand.

"Maybe the atheist can do better than much of the hypocritical behavior of many true believers, but this is irrelevant. BSA requires duty to God and reverence which still excludes the atheist." That is the exact issue Hunt was questioning when the thread began.

I never attempted to make an argument against God's existence. The knowledge of right and wrong is something I think that EVERY human possesses. And that beleif is not upheld by religious or scientific criteria, I just believe it. There are however other variables than can change what people see as right. Your argument also runs in circles around itself. You claim that athiests have nothing to guide them, no sense of morals or ethics and that they act entirely out of self-interest. Yet you also claim that human decency and common sense are traits instilled by God onto ALL humans. "W

"Possibly, but lets clarify something. An atheist has a belief about God. He is not someone who is undecided on faith as a whole. An atheist denies the existence of God. And in my experience, they usually do so just as confidently as I proclaim His existence." Not all athiests would fit into that boat. True, some are as concrete in their beleif that no supernatural power exists similarily to the way you are sure one does. However, me and my ilk form what I have grown to know as the much larger pool of what are often labelled athiests. I guess you could call me "Man who doesn't have faith

"If a boy believes in a false god, then we can safely conclude these things: 1) This boy believes in a power and authority greater then humanity. 2) While his faith is not placed in the true God, he understands that our existence goes beyond the physical world. 3) His morals beliefs do not rely on the stability of an individual or an institution. 4) As long as hes examining the world spiritual and physical, there is hope that he will open his heart to the true God." Ok, lets take a look at number 4) here. I would wager quite a bit (from my own experiences) that a

ed, "So you think you can live a life of sin & still go to heaven?" I never said anything remotely close to that. What I said was that I don't believe it to be fact those who don't repent 'sins' will spend the rest of eternity in hell. I can't tell you what I think happens to people after death because I have absolutely no idea, and neither I think do you. Infact my original quarrel was with the comment about athiests going to hell simply because they were athiests, as if that implied immorality and wickedness.

FOG, That's correct. I as an individual don't want to due to a lack of the required traits already listed. evmori, No it isn't!

Bob White, It is my understanding that there is still a great deal of debating and defending of beliefs within Scouting (within this forum anyway)regardless of a common value like recognition of God. However, how often do issues like this actually affect real Scouting? When asked, my son told me that religion and beleifs almost never came up. Do Scouts have real concern with the beliefs of other Scouts? Isn't respecting others beliefs a requirement of Scouts as well? You apparently think that no, a non-believer who benefits from Scouting is NOT worth it. In my opinion, positive values are

boleta writes: "I don't get it. Why would an atheist want to belong to an organization that REQUIRES you to do your duty to God?" Maybe because that very same organization also teaches many other values and attributes desirable to a person, athiest or not. As I said earlier, the BSA is cutting a line between those with faith and those with none. My issue is not the same as Merlyn's, so please don't confuse them. I don't particularily have much interest in the constitutionality of the membership requirements. My issue is with what matters to me and real people, and that is exclusion f

That is truly disgusting FOG. I take no comfort whatsoever in the idea that people are damned to hell for all eternity. It is that exact sort of mentality that made me leave the church a long time ago.

What Hunt is asking is WHY the BSA values persons who are reverent towards God, in whatever form they perceive God to be in. Is this beleif a conscience decision? Are some people born with faith and others with none. It may be a comparable situation to the debate over whether homosexuality is a choice or not. Does the BSA believe faith is a choice, and that people without it (ie athiests) are immoral, self-centered and misguided in their beleifs? But don't we look at Muslim terrorists who hijack airplanes to murder people because God wants Americans to die as misguided in their beleifs? Many p

Bob White, You seem to have flip-flopped on the issue of respect for athiesm... Anyway, you said that you didn't agree with the athiests lack of faith. You said that anyone of any religion that recognizes and worships a God fulfulls the membership requirements of the BSA. For me, religion begins with one fundamental beleif. It's shared by most, if not all religions. The beleif that a force or power greater than our comprehensions of physics is existent and in control. This is the exact beleif that I lack, or at least do not understand, and how can I trust what I don't understand? It

To my knowledge, liberals were never opposed to the war in Afghanistan.

Amen willysjeep.

I agree acco40, A President who lets 10 soldiers die and does not care is arguably preferable over a President who lets 1000 soldiers die and breaks down in tears over it. I don't think that any average citizen can judge the quality of a President, or any politician for that matter, based on the personal emotions/feelings that they express to the media. How do we know which are calculated publicity stunts and how many are sincere? No, the only possible judge of a leader's quality are their actions and the consequences following them. Does a Presedential sex scandal reflect weak moral char

Rooster, Why do you make the assumption that since I do not beleive the universe is controlled by a singular conscience force that I have no sense of ethics, morals or right and wrong? How do the two connect together? I understand how you could think that since I don't beleive in what you think is the ultimate source of good and love, that I am not capable of understanding or applying those things, but this is simply not the case. To make blanket-statements about a group like they have no guilt for their actions, based entirely on whether-or-not they beleive a supernatural being is presen

"They are much like the flat Earth folks, working very hard not to believe the evidence so they can cling to their erroneous beliefs." I don't know how things run where you are from, but to me the phrase "cling to their erroneous beliefs" when refering to spiritual beleifs (or 'value system' for those who won't recognize true atheism as a beleif structure) is astonishingly arrogant, offensive and downright ignorant. Especially coming from a Scout.

"After all, if they were still on the air, more people would realize the foolishness of their reasoning (or lack thereof). " "That's the trouble with conservative radio listeners, they just make up stuff and pretend it's true." I hope no one ever votes for anyone like you two.(This message has been edited by Achilleez)