johnsch322

The TCC has been extremely quiet.  Any idea about the next town hall?

On 6/25/2021 at 5:38 PM, SilverPalm said:

Once again, I'm a day late to reply.  Apologies in advance for the tardiness.

I think this is where many of us are coming from.  Reading the eloquent posts from several of the victims here illustrates the point even further - why should a legal firm expect to take 40% of the compensation offered by the BSA to victims and survivors?  Many of these men have suffered for decades, and have pointed out that the abuse they suffered has severely impacted their lives.  Careers folding, earning potentials shattered, families wounded by fathers who simply cannot be all they want to be... of course the BSA needs to pay out.  And it needs to be enough to hurt the BSA.  Because these men, these former Scouts have been hurting ever since they were children.  Is any amount of money enough to assuage that?

I think I speak for many when I say that it is good and right that the BSA lives up to its promises and does everything in its power to, if not make this right, then at least make it less wrong, should such a thing be possible.  

I, however, fail to understand how a legal firm should be entitled to taking a third or four tenths or half of the award simply by virtue of having the knowledge of navigating the legal world.  Yes, I understand they are making and have made this settlement possible in the first place.  But if the BSA pays out a billion dollars, why should the survivors have to split up only a little better than half of that?  Is having a legal degree really worth $400 million?  Wouldn't that money be better off with the victims, the ones who actually had to live with this pain?

These lawyers didn't suffer the indignities and the pain of the assaults.  They didn't then go on to live shattered lives, to watch their potential earnings shrink, to watch their families grow distant because of this ever-present gulf they simply couldn't understand... they answered the phone, did some paperwork, and spent a year in court.  Right? Is that worth taking all this money from the victims?  

This is not intended as a criticism of the victims, nor of their right to legal representation.  Far from it.  If I had my way, these folks would have the finest representation available to them. 

That said, the sheer magnitude of the potential windfall for these legal firms is an embarrassment, especially considering that every dollar they take is a dollar not going to the victims.

I'm not a member of the legal profession.  I do not know what's typical in cases like this, or fair, or whether those two ideas even align.  But I do know that it feels wrong for legal firms to be taking 30 or 40% of the money that the BSA is presenting in an effort to set right the wrongs of the past... it sure seems that way to me.

That's all.  I think lawyers are providing a valuable service in giving voice to the voiceless... but taking such a significant chunk of the settlement money just smacks of indecency to me.  I think that's where the "(deleted) lawyer" comments are coming from.  The victims should be compensated.  The lawyers should be paid for their work.  But how much is really fair?  How much is even appropriate?

I don't know.  Maybe I shouldn't even be commenting on this.  I'm an outsider.  I'm just not sure that taking 40% of the settlement money is really the best way to help make survivors whole.

The issue of debating about lawyers could be compared to 'What came first the chicken or the egg".  I find from the above that you are speaking from both sides of a coin.  You pretty much say it is good but it is bad and you are correct.  Do I wish it was 10, 20, or 30 percent of course.  First contract I signed was 40% and then when my lawyer assigned me to another law firm it became 33.3% plus expenses.  It is a larger law firm handling many more of these cases and when I talked about it to my first lawyer he said he was happy for me (I am sure he will get his cut of the 33.3%). Could I have done this myself...well I could have filled out the POC beyond that no.  Original intent was to file in a court and then of course the bankruptcy came along.  Definitely could not have represented myself thru the court system.  Does it feel wrong that my law firm will get 33.3%...no.  When I consider that they have major amounts of overhead which includes many lawyers, support staff, rent, utilities etc. etc. well maybe you can see where I am going from here.  But how much is really fair....I would have to say fair is what I agree to.  How much is appropriate...well you might get what you pay for.  What really isn't appropriate is how much the BSA has spent on lawyers fighting to keep from paying money to survivors.   

I think we might see other states open up own investigations.  

16 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

This is helpful. As I have been changing my mind on lawyer fees, partly it is due to hearing these types of details. All of the staff and professionals come out of those fees. It isn’t one person having to get paid. It is many that SOMEONE is paying upfront. 

Obviously I cannot speak for everyone I can only tell my story.  What I can say is that the claimants lawyers are in the business of practicing law.  The imperative word in that last sentence being business.  They all have expenses rent, utilities, support staff etc. etc.  Most if not all of these lawyers took these cases on a contingency basis meaning if there is no recovery they get nothing and not all contingency cases are won.  However I will say that if the minimal $9,000 is all that is recovered per claim than I am confident that all the firms with a large amount of cases will at least clear their expenses.  Also from what I can garner not all claims will receive any money.  Some will be denied.  Secondly they all have a fiduciary obligation to maximize the amount recovered.  

22 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Not asking for details, of course, but in what areas did they help you flesh out your POC?

As I have stated in posts previously all of this has been like pulling a scab off of a wound.  The first person I talked to was someone on the end of an 800# and it did not go well.  She ended up saying they would send me a link to the perversion files.  When I called back I left a message and no one got back to me and I am sure it was just an intake person whom I had talked to. 

I did a little research and found a lawyer who specialized in survivor cases and had started his career as a psychiatrist and transitioned into law.  I left a message and he personally got back to me.  he spent quite of bit of time talking to and listening to me.  He explained the history of what was transpiring and made me feel extremely comfortable.  He set up an appointment with a psychiatrist who could affirm for the courts that indeed I had the symptoms of past abuse.  He followed up with me and offered to have professionals reach out to me to help  with my feelings with no out of pocket costs.  Unfortunately he came to an untimely death and it was with great sorrow i heard of his passing.  Fortunately for me his son was part of practice.  His son has the positive attributes of his father.  I am able to text him at anytime with any of my concerns and worries and he always gets back to me.  When this into bankruptcy my lawyer informed me that he was going to assign me to one of the larger firms (I think that they represent about 1600 claimants).  He explained to me that I would be better served by the bankruptcy expertise that my current representation has and that with so many claimants they would have a seat at the main table. 

This firm called me multiple times and explained what was happening and each and every time it was a lawyer.  We set up a time to talk to do the POC and spent about 2 hours going over it.  She took her time asked questions had me expound upon what I said.  She probed but she was empathetic and made me feel comfortable even between the tears.  I opened up about something I had personally done after my own sexual abuse which I believe could be very important at some point of time.  She is the only person I have ever told that to. 

This is probably more than you had asked for and may not even be helpful to you but believe me writing these words is helpful to me.

20 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I cannot speak for others, but for me it is the outrageous monthly fees on both sides that is upsetting. I would rather that money go to the victims directly. Again for me, the lawyers getting a large percentage ( I hope it's not the 40% someone posted, but even 35% which I am told is the average is too high IMHO) is also upsetting. I would rather 85-90% of the fund go the victims instead of 65-60%

From what I understand once the settlement trust is established it will be our lawyers (for those of us that have one) that will be presenting our individual cases to establish valuations.  Theoretically if $100,000 is on the table they can make a case for $200,000 (as an example) and thus earn their fees.  My lawyer/lawyers help me prepare my claim and thru their questioning I am sure it is much stronger just because of that.  I believe that is why the TCC is encouraging survivors to have legal representation.

Does this sound somewhat familiar

Police were not to be called on predatory coaches at USA Gymnastics, says former worker – Press Enterprise (pe.com)

And what was the payout to the victims for this misguided, shameful, coverup/hide policy? 

1 hour ago, skeptic said:

From my view, their methods do, and not just in this case.  There are dozens, maybe thousands of these kinds of cases.  It is how they go about it, and their unreasonable expectations, as well as the larger damage that makes them scavengers.  But, really, vultures serve a real purpose, so I will take it back.  They are simply greedy and unconscionable.  And out and gone.  No more comments, though maybe see if any actual new info shows up with actual solutions that are balanced.  To answer your other rude question, at least twice we turned someone in for possible abuse, and investigations were done.  It was not sexual abuse though.  We also contacted one family in regard to a teen scout that was abusing another youth.  The parents refused to accept, but the authorities were told in regard to his being in public schools.  We did our due diligence if we had information, but we cannot make authorities follow up, and too often, as in some of these cases has shown, it was not just the BSA that dropped the ball.  But government is protected it seems and are let off the hook.  I hope they come to a fair and rational outcome, and it includes little or no compensation for certain legal people.

 

What methods are you talking about? The advertising in Facebook and other media with the headline "Were you abused in Scouting" well thank god they did because until then I thought I was the only one.  BSA knew 11 to 13 boys in my troop had been abused but not one person from BSA asked me that question.

How they go about what? Bring lawsuits against the BSA?  There had been dozens of lawsuits successfully won and or settled prior to all of this. These were just the miniscule tip of the proverbial iceberg.  The BSA was so afraid of sinking like the Titanic that they entered into Bankruptcy thinking it was the easiest the inevitable.  

Unreasonable expectations? So is restitution in the amount of say $500,000, $1,000,000, 10,000,000 or $20,000,000 unreasonable?  If you were the victim of 2 men when you were a boy, lived a life of hell and had the unspeakable happen to you what amount would be reasonable.  The only reason the number is $103 Billion is because of the shear number of cases.  The cost of mental health care itself can run into the 100's of thousands of dollars.  Not everyone has insurance resources and must pay these expenses out of pocket.

The larger damage? Damn don't exactly know where to go with that.  BSA will be allowed to live on but mine and possibly 100's of thousands of lives were destroyed by BSA policies of cover up and hide.

Solutions that are balanced?  I think you are trying to say solutions that cost the BSA less assets. Am I mistaken?

I am glad to hear that you did your due diligence if you had information but as you say they weren't sexual.  Follow up should be with the victim making sure the aren't goods afterwards.

BSA dropped the ball?  Heck they did the proverbial we own the ball and we make the rules.  Their rule was deny deny,  and hide the facts.  Lobby against anything that might damage our reputation and don't ever do anything that might help the victims of our rules.

Fair and rational outcome?  What would you consider fair and rational? Needing legal help in this situation I signed away 33.3% (contingent) of my settlement which (which is fair and reasonable). If you wish my lawyer/law firm to get little or no compensation you are wishing the same for myself and most other victims/survivors.

On 6/23/2021 at 4:14 PM, skeptic said:

Sorry, but I am simply tired of the BS of somehow thinking money can cure everything. 

You are correct that money cannot cure everything.  However restitution for pain, mental suffering, loss of possible wages (personally I think I underachieved in this life because of the abuse), my daughters suffering from my emotional unavailability (if there is enough restitution at some point she will benefit) and the fact I realize now I might need mental care the rest of my lifetime so restitution/money won't cure me but it will make my life easier.  

Are you so naive to think that the BSA ever cared for those of us who were abused?  Did they ever reach out and say hey we have issues within BSA and your troop and we suspect you may have been a victim and want to help you?  Hell no they didn't.  Only with legal pressure (deleted) did they do anything positive.  

I read your profile and see you were an ASM in 1966 and 1967 (67 was the year I was raped by 2 adult volunteers) and you have been active in BSA for most of your life.  Did you ever hear of anything going on and if you did were you alerting scouts to this issue? When all of this started to come to light many years ago did you go to the higher ups and say hey we need to do something here.  

(deleted) this was started because to many leaders in troops, and councils, and in the national turned there backs and did not do what was correct.  This in military terms is called a failure to lead.

If it wasn't for lawyers the perversion files would not have seen the light of day.  If it wasn't for the legal system the BSA would still be hiding everything.  If BSA had not hid and covered up what was happening they might not have the wealth they have today since the big reason it was hidden because they did not want their fund raising, donations, and scout levels to drop.

On 6/23/2021 at 4:14 PM, skeptic said:

Good luck, but enough with the denial that somehow it is okay to destroy BSA (deleted)

The TCC has publicly stated that they do not want to destroy the BSA.  (deleted).  And as for your "Good luck" you can keep it...I just want full restitution for all that I deserve.

13 minutes ago, Muttsy said:

My bad. But you get me.  2021-22. 
 

creeping senility 

You don’t have to tell me I am dealing with it every day. 

1 minute ago, Muttsy said:

Too pessimistic. Folks may see an initial distribution in 2020 early 21. Once the carriers see that they can no longer hold BSA hostage, perspectives will change — quickly. My gut tells me carriers will begin to get serious soon. 
 

Think of it as an annuity. Every year another check. 

Muttsy I hate to be the one to tell you but we are already in 2021 and half of it is gone. But I get what you are implying. 

48 minutes ago, Bronco1821 said:

So I hope I am understanding this complex case....

Ballpark timing...

2 months to vote and approve BSA deal

After that, about 6 months to deal with insurance companies and any Chartered Organizations.

Then the court appointed trustee will review each case and determine compensation...that could take a really long time...

so we are 12 - 18 months away from any conclusion?  Is that possible?

I would say 12 to 18 months for money from BSA and LC’s and 3 to 4 years for insurance money. They will be fighting and delaying at every turn. 

1 minute ago, CynicalScouter said:

 

The idea is that the decision of the trustee is LEGALLY BINDING in and of itself just as if the bankruptcy judge herself made the decision. You don't need a separate lawsuit.

If the trustee says the insurance company owes $1 million, that's an enforceable judgement. The insurance company could then have to appeal to the bankruptcy judge, but they could not simply say "Screw you, we refuse to pay."

If they did, the trustee would notify the bankruptcy judge who would then seek contempt proceedings and/or simply order assets of the insurance company seized to pay the judgement.

Thank you for the clarification.  Given that I would think that it would make sense for all of the insurance company's to try to settle beforehand.  Possibly the TCC et.al does not want them to knowing the trustee will determine they will owe much more.

2 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

including the right to resolve any disputes with a Non-Settling Insurance Company regarding their obligation to pay some or all of an Insured Abuse Claim.

I take from that statement a lawsuit can be filed against an insurance company by the trustee?

7 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

I believe the answer is: yes. BSA is transferring its insurance coverage to the Settlement Trust. That means yes, you have to depend on the trustee to go after the insurance companies (except Hartford which already cut its deal the "Insurance Settlement Agreement" or "Hartford Insurance Settlement Agreement").

This is why, as the TCC has said over and over, EVERY victim needs to be hiring a lawyer because this is going to get even more complicated. That lawyer will then be arguing in front of the trustee why the insurance company owes that particular victim XXX or YYY.

See page 51.

https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/75cad6f2-cc34-4b0c-896f-0d26815b1189_5368.pdf

C.Transfer of Claims to the Settlement Trust. 1. On the Effective Date or as otherwise provided herein, and without further action of any Person, the Settlement Trust shall assume the liabilities, obligations, and responsibilities of the Protected Parties for all Abuse Claims, financial or otherwise. These assumptions by the Settlement Trust shall not affect (a) the application of the Discharge Injunction or the Channeling Injunction or (b) any Non-Settling Insurance Company’s obligation under any Insurance Policy that is not the subject of an Insurance Settlement Agreement.

Ok.  How does the trustee get the non settled insurance company's to pay into the settlement?  Where will the motivation be to settle if they cannot be sued?  Or will the trustee be suing them on behalf of all claimants or will they file individual suits?  Sorry if I sound ignorant.

Just now, CynicalScouter said:

I believe that because this is a bankruptcy, you cannot opt out of the settlement and then go sue BSA: this is intended to settle ALL and I mean ALL claims prior to February 2020 against BSA.

As for the LCs, if the LC doesn't "buy into" the settlement, then they are not covered and therefore you can sue them.

Since the insurance companies (other than Hartford) are also not covered, they are on the hook down the road as well.

So if my LC opts into the settlement I have to depend on the trustee to go after the insurance company?  I cannot go after them as an individual?  I am a little confused. 

7 minutes ago, Muttsy said:

It appears that all of the policies will be assigned to the trust. That is expected. 
 

The are only a few states that allow a direct action against the insurance company by the beneficial party in interest aka the plaintiff/claimant. 

So if one were to opt out of the settlement could the BSA, LC be sued?

So if the revised plan is passed as is, will lawsuits against the insurers be allowed on an individual basis i.e. survivor in California which has look back?

Yesterday I was a recipient of an email from the law firm representing me. It emphasized that this really is just the beginning and that the earliest they expect any of the settlement to be distributed will be in about 9 months. This will be a slow process but the real process has just started. It has been anguishing up to now and I don’t expect it to get any easier. @ThenNowwe still need you around. Your insights are valuable and you and everyone else relieves some of my stress. Thank you all. 

5 hours ago, HICO_Eagle said:

this crisis was precipitated by 1) lawyers smelling money, 2) activists seeking to tear down another pillar of traditional American society & culture, 3) bureaucrats protecting their rears. 

5 hours ago, HICO_Eagle said:

I think the victims are being victimized all over again by #1 and #2 in pursuit of their own goals.

I feel a need to revisit this.  BSA has spent a tremendous amount of money for legal fees and other costs associated with this bankruptcy and they did it for one reason to keep themselves from losing everything.  It is probably more then the amount that they want National to put into the settlement trust.  White Cassel has made a large bucket of money and will make more the longer that this drags on (which is to their benefit).  Who are the activists you are referring to that wants to "tear down another pillar of traditional American society & culture"?  The "bureaucrats protecting their rears" all seem to be part of BSA national hence the strategy of the global plan and the short sightedness of how many survivors would come forward (and that back fired big time).

I don't think victims are being victimized all over again by #1 and #2 but more by the #1 the BSA (offering so little and spending so much to offer so little) and  the BSA legal team who came up with this crazy legal strategy.   

If it wasn't for the lawyers who reached out and made it OK to come forward who let survivors know they weren't the only victims the BSA's strategy may have worked.  I believe that if it wasn't for the lawyers you believe are victimizing survivors would get much less compensation when all is said and done.  Who is going to go up against the insurance company's, the CO's and maybe the LC's?  And yes they do not do it for free.

38 minutes ago, qwazse said:

To be precise, Big Tobacco knew the general use of their product would increase risk (as opposed to generally not using it).

Even the smokers knew that it increased risk for death.  My father started smoking at the age of 12 and told me that they called cigarettes "coffin sticks" back that then. He died of lung cancer and it didn't take a warning on a cigarette pack to tell him what his eventuality would be.  BSA knew long before I became a scout that there was a distinct chance that I could be abused (they had records and files about abusers) yet I am sure that no one told my parents and definitely never told me "hey be careful we don't know a lot about those men that will be camping with you or your child".  Maybe if they had I would never been a scout and never been abused.  

6 minutes ago, HICO_Eagle said:

I am sorry for your experience but this crisis was precipitated by 1) lawyers smelling money, 2) activists seeking to tear down another pillar of traditional American society & culture, 3) bureaucrats protecting their rears.  That doesn't excuse the mistakes made by various individuals at all levels of Scouting over the years but it is far from "a rape culture" as alleged by someone I know.  I think the victims are being victimized all over again by #1 and #2 in pursuit of their own goals.

My experience is that my rapist raped 11- 13 other young boys.  The Boy Scouts knew about it (several letters from Troop Master to local council talking about it.  Yes he was forced out out of that troop tried again in a different state and was denied the ability to volunteer (and he got his $2 application fee back) and that local council was told to tell him politely that his services were not needed.  Wonder where he went next to get his rocks off? I wonder how many more young boys did he victimize?  If he was caught later was BSA culpable because they didn't turn him into law enforcement.  This crisis/sh_t storm was caused because the BSA did not want bad publicity which could cause harm to their fund raising efforts.  And yes you are making excuses and as a victim I don't feel victimized again I actually feel empowered!!

11 minutes ago, 100thEagleScout said:

Aired November 17, 2020

I would say then that not much has changed in the positive (as far as anyone knows for sure) since November 17, 2020.

Any idea how long ago these statements were made?  The TCC said they had a presentation for each LC but were afraid National would not let them see the presentation.