Cambridgeskip

Sounds like BSA needs a knot book

http://www.scouts.org.uk/cms.php?pageid=134

but someone from the UK, gave me the impression that the majority of all units was in the leadership of young adult. You were looked at as kindof strange if you were an still trying to be an adult leader and were older the 25 or 30 (or somewhere around there)..

Moosetracker - possibly it was something I said. In another thread I referred to some other European countries where you had to retire from being a leader at around 30 and could only be a commissioner of some sort above that age. In the Uk we have quite a spectrum of ages. Currently we have 8 adult leaders with my troop (a lot! but they can't be there every week, we had 4 last night) aged 20, 21, 23, 28, 32, 33, 45 and 68 (and he's still going strong!) and that spread is probably a younger average age than most.

I would echo would echo what Moggie said in that the YL scheme can be excellent both for groups and the YLs. Get good YLs and they are a massive asset and have a very different relationship with the scouts/cubs/beavers. they tend to work best as a pair from my experience.

Now then, seeing as the UK model was mentioned I guess I should put in my forpeneth (2 cents) worth.

The current age ranges in the UK have been a success but that is not to say that they don't have their draw backs so be careful of what you wish for. But I guess I should give a bit of background to how it ended up that way.

Historically the age ranges in the UK have changed a number of times. From around 1965 onwards they were

Cubs 8-10 and a half

Scouts 10 and a half to 15 and a half

Venture Scouts 15 and a half to 21

From the late 80s onwards Beavers were introduced for 6-8 year olds.

The UK of 1965 was a very different one to 1995. Very few people went to university and many people left school aged 15 to start apprenticeships which they would typically pass out from aged 21. Hence the age ranges made sense, ie you moved to a more senior section around the time you left education.

Fast forward 30 years and full time education was compulsory to 16, the overwhelming majority stayed till they were 18 and around 50% were either going to univeristy or going to some other kind of training after that. Other changes to society had also come about, too many to go into. The effect though was that scouts were losing their14 and 15 year old who simply didn't want to hang around with 10 and 11 year olds and venture units were losing their 18-19 year olds to university meaning that the system where by the older members of the unit effectively ran it was falling apart. A further problem identified was that younger adult leaders, those under 25, were being lost as they felt socially isolated in groups where they were often 20 years the junior of many adult leaders.

So the age ranges were changed to reflect this, scouts now cut off at 14 (although there is some flexibility, kids can stay till they are 14 and a half), Explorers came in for 14-18 year olds and Network for 18-25s. Network is, in theory, a youth section. Its other fucntion though is to provide a social setting for younger leaders and it is helping to keep them, it was losely modeled on the student scout and guide clubs that had, and still do, prove very successfull.

And it has worked, numbers across the UK are up over 20% in the last 7 years, disproportionatly so for those aged over 13. It has, in my opinion, been a great success. Some caveats though.

The increase in numbers cannot be placed simply at the door of the new age ranges. There have been many other changes to. The uniform has changed, especially the trousers. I wouldn't have been seen dead in the old style trousers, the new ones, navy blue combats, are far better (and practical). The introduction of coed scouting (now THAT will be controversial on here!), the splitting of the chief scout role into a chief commissioner (who runs the organisation) and a figure head chief scout who is more of an ambasador (currently Bear Grills) and refocussing the programme on adventure rather than the more traditional scouting.

Also the scout section has lost something. There is only so much you can ask of a 13 or 14 year old PL. It is not the same as a 15 year old. They need more supervision and also have less of an air of authority. You can get them to run a patrol camp on their own, but the effort it takes to get them to that standard is very large.

There are politics as well. Venture was meant to run at group level. Explorers now runs at district level. Some groups have been unhappy about this and have undermined the explorer programme but this is gradually being stamped out.

Over all I think what we have gained from the changes has out weighed what we lost. Scouting only makes a difference if you can get bums on seats. Also scouting is there to serve the kids, to give them what they need. Currently in the UK we have a problem with many kids, particularly in urban areas, being wrapped in cotton wool. The refocus on adventure, of giving them the chances to do something scary that gets them out of their comfort zone and gives their parents a reminder of what their kids can do is exactly what is needed and more important than being able to lead a group of 6 or 7 other kids.

If BSA wants to change I think they need to think carefully about what they are trying to achieve by making those changes. Change for the sake of change can be the worst thing you can do. only you lot know what is going to get the average 13 year old American through the door and also what they need. The one week I spent in New York leaves me far from qualified!

To be honest I wouldn't believe everything you read in the Telegraph. It is so biased* and right wing it makes Gengis Khan look like a liberal. They are having a review of the position and not promising to change anything.

*All UK news papers are heavily biased one way or the other

"You are correct in that, and if memory serves, that's the policy in the UK. Once you get age out over there, you look for another group to join."

Kind of......

You need to remember the age ranges here which are

Beavers 6-8

Cubs 8 - 10 and a half

Scouts 10 and a half - 14

Explorers 14-18

Network 18-25

At 18 you as well as being in Network you can also be an adult leader with any section. Certainly we have had 18/19/20 year old leaders with beavers, cubs and scouts round our way and indeed for a while we had a 19 year old girl as CSL with our cubs (she dispensed with the traditional "Akela" title and was known, and still is, known as "Tinkerbell", far more fitting especially when she just does a hand stand or back flip in the middle of the room!)

Theoretically you can also be an adult leader with explorers as well, but in practice it is vanishingly rare, it is generally suggested to wait till you are 20, simply because of that problem of still being seen as one of the lad(ess)

Over all though younger leaders are encouraged as they bring a real energy to things with new ideas, fresh thinking etc. In fact in some European countries, particularly Eastern Europe I understand that you have to retire from being a front line leader at 35 and you can only be in a commissioner role after that age!

In the UK we also have the young leader (YL) scheme where by 14-17 year old explorer scouts can be a YL with beavers, cubs or scouts. And it is brilliantly successfull with many competent leaders being produced at the other end (indeed our 19 year old CSL came through the YL scheme, aged 21 she is now ACSL due to work commitments but is still with us). Similar to adult leaders some of this is theoretical. Most beaver colonies and cub packs will happily take on a 14 year old YL. Scout troops do so only rarely. I personally insist of them being 15 and some even say 16. Again this is because of them just being seen as one of the lad(ess)s so it is hard for them to gain the respect of the troop. I had a scout move up to explorers in July who wants to come back as a YL. I have had to tell her to wait until she is 15 next July as it is simply not fare on either her or the rest of the troop.

In all this talk of checking references does the USA have the equivalent of a CRB check? Over here we not only can we are also obliged to do a CRB (Criminal Records Bureau) check not just at scouts but on any adult that works with "vulnerable" people (essentially children, the elderly, those with learning difficulties or the disabled) They have to prove their identity and they are then checked to see if they have a criminal record. Of course this will only catch out anyone that has been prosecuted but it obviously acts as a deterant to any undesirables from even applying.

I find it extraordinary that any willing adult volunteer would be turned away without very good reason. So what if he is a student? We currently have two student assistant leaders with our scouts and two with our cubs plus a 3rd who only graduated and stayed in the area a few months back. In fact scouting in Cambridge would fall over if it were not for the students who volunteer across the city. In addition the uni scout and guide club run a number of events at district and county level which are fantastic. Do US uni's have similar organisations? They are a huge success over here. The Cambridge website is well worth a look

http://www.srcf.ucam.org/cusagc/index.php?l=home

Similar to Pchadbo, we find some free time works quite well. On a typical week long camp where the kids cook on fire a typical daily time table would be wake up at 7am, aim to be cooked, eaten and cleaned up for 9am flag break/order of the day with a free time period then till either 9.30 or 10am before programme proper. There would then be another period of free time at the end of the day's formal programme at 4.30 before they start lighting fires for dinner around 5.30. It works quite well.

Typically it will result in a game of football (soccer! nothing involving touch downs thank you very much ) or cricket or rugby breaking out or else some form of wide game or, bizarely, ditch jumping tends to be quite popular (they will find a drainage ditch somewhere and see who can jump across the widest point, particularly popular with the girls weirdly)

On a more general point I do agree, we can be over paranoid. The rules are just as tight in the UK. I understand many of them, eg seperate changing for adults and scouts, are there for a good reason, but equally I think there needs to be a common sense approach with people not reacting hysterically if someone does not follow the letter of the rules.

As well as weight being an issue it's also worth thinking about the rucksack itself. Men and women are different shapes and it is important that the boys have a man's rucksack and girls a woman's so that the weight distribution between shoulders and hips is correct. You can have the lightest rucksack in your patrol but if all the weight goes on your shoulders is going to get uncomfortable!

I think Sasha has it right here, much of this is about expectations. Being in the UK I have a coed troop. I've seen boys that when faced with a girl who has matured quicker than they have (and that is a biological fact of life) have stepped up to the mark because we have expected them to, I've also seen them decide that there is no way they can compete so don't, normally when as adults we took our eye off the ball. Itreally is about expectations.

On that food issue cooking does have to be spread around all scouts of all ages. The fact is that where ever you are in the world being able to cook, whether that is on a wood fire in the middle of nowhere or in a proper kitchen, is one of the most important practical skills that we can pass on to young people. It keeps them fit, healthy, gives a potential career and provides them with a very civilised way of socialising.

Grub's up folks!

Here here Moosetracker.

Morals are shades of grey and what I believe is acceptable you may not. So be it.

But facts are facts. And the facts are that homosexuals are no greater threat to a child than heterosexuas and to try and equate homosexuality with peadophilia smacks of ignorance and prejudice. It saddens me that any of my fellow scouts still hold such views. and

Baden P - I think you have misunderstood Eamon's post. I read it as meaning that those in prison for peadophilia were sick and that the gay men (who presumably are in for something else) were the caring ones, albeit caring men who have somewhat gone off the rails.

Moosetracker

1. As far as I know we have never had chartering organisations. Someone with a better knowledge of UK scouting may be able to tell you different but as far as I know, with the exception of a very small number of closed groups (normally attached to boarding schools) no one has anequivalent of a charter.

This may be a cultural issue. Where groups meet varies. My group is lucky in that we have our own HQ built on land that we lease from our County Council. Others use school halls or, most commonly, church halls. What happens though is that churchs are generally happy to rent halls out to anyone, for them to refuse to rent a room you would have to literally be into devil worship, seriously, they are that relaxed about it. Perhaps schools and churches in the USA are very different to ours.

It sounds like it would take a massive change to drop chartering organisations.

2. We have quite a complex system of governance. Groups have volunteer execs but they are mostly focused on fund raising, leader recruitment and looking after buildings and equipment. Above that at district level we have a system of a District Commissioner, who's word is law, they are supported by Assistant DCs for Beavers, Cubs, Scouts and Explorers. When we do anything adventurous we have to tell them. eg if I organise a camp I have to tell the DC where we are gfoing, how many kids, how many leaders, what we are doing etc. She can grill me on anything to do with it and, ultimately can instruct me to cancel it (it has never happened to me, it's happened to others). She or an ADC can turn up to any group at any time and check what is going on. There are similar structures at county, regional and national level (at regional and national level they are full time (badly) paid employees of the scout association)

Bit of blue sky thinking....

Could BSA change evenmore fundamentally and just drop the need for a chartering organisation? Works perfectly well elsewhere and then BSA can have its own policies without having to worry about the chartering bodies.

Just a thought!

A couple of questions from the UK.....

How does this whole thing work with international events? If I brought my troop to an international jamboree of some sort in the USA and my openly gay assistant leader came to what's the deal? Would she be allowed to attend? She's a fully signed up member in good standing of a WOSM affiliated association. What would happen if no one realised she was gay (there is no reason why they should) till she got there?

Similarly where leaders in the USA say they would have nothing to do with BSA if it admited homosexuals would you/they attend an international event in another country where being gay and a scout/leader is perfectly accepted?

Finally how will this circle be squared when USA hosts world jamboree in 2019?

I do hope those questions don't sound liek some European liberal sneering across the pond because it's not, I'm just interested to know how it all gets dealt with!

Now then, examples of neckers on youth....

While I have hundreds of photos of my own merry band we also have a local agreement with parents that they are generally only posted on the internet on our groups picassa account as private albums and only parents, leaders and selected known (in the real world) individuals are invited to view, I am sure you understand.

However.... a few links I can point you towards

First we live blogged a trip to Amsterdam about a year ago, you can find the blog here

http://12thcambridge.wordpress.com/

Apologies for the dodgy formatting in places but it was all done from a Blackberry while on the move!

This link is the staff of Tolmers scout campsite (the young and the young at heart) spoofing Nickleback (always funny) and most are in site neckers

These are the public photos from Cubjam 2009 (a mini jamboree just for cubs, I went and it was amazing fun!)

http://www.cubjam.org.uk/09/live/index.php?option=com_joomgallery&func=viewcategory&catid=1&Itemid=61

As you can see, neckers are popular! Mine that went to Amsterdam got issued with the red white and blue UK neckers and wear them with real pride and wont be seperated from them!

Interestingly in the late 90s there was a proposal to do away with the necker from the uniform in the UK. There was near insurrection! Not from the adults but from the scouts themselves. The kids love the necker, it is in some ways very tribal. It is a very basic human need, particularly for teenagers, to want to belong and the necker is fantastic in that its basic outline identifies you as something huge, like scouting generally, but the group colours identify you as part of a smaller family group. It's perfect!

Perhaps there could have been a better dismisall, maybe there couldn't. Who knows, difficult for those of us not there to say. But for this SM to blame his scouts misbehaving on that is dreadful. It should have been those scouts he was hauling over the coals (do you understand that expression your side of the pond?) and not the camp organisers.

I had a small group misbehave at a large and frankly tediously dull camp fire last year. Could it have been run better? Yes. Did I pass the buk? No. All 3 were invited to apologise to the camp fire leader, all 3 were restricted to our site for the rest of the evening, all 3 got extra chores and the ring leader lost his PL stripes.

At the moment I have 13 year old with Aspergers syndrome. If you are not familiar it is a particular type of Autism (in fact Autism is a bit like the term Cancer, it is a catch all term for a range of similar but related conditions). The lad is work in progress but he has gone from being very difficult indeed to now just a bit of hard work. So a few tips.

1. You can't do this on your own, neither can his parents, neither can his school. All the adults, and indeed his friends, have to work together. So get talking!

2. You need to see his diagnosis which his parents should have. This will give you a better idea of what the specific issues are and will help you develope ways of handling it.

3. Some behaviour will be as a result of his condition, other times it will simply a teenage boy being a teenage boy. Understanding his condition will help you distinguish the two. When it is him just acting up make sure you treat him the same as everyone else.

4. Keep it simple. When explaining something to him think carefully first and keep the instructions as short and clear as possible. When talking to him whether in a group or individually make sure he realises you are addressing him, use his name, make lots of eye contact, ask him questions. Often someone with autism will be completely unaware that they are being spoken to especially when in a group. Equally they are some times unaware that what is being said is being said to someone else and not them, so be aware of that as well!

5. Find what he is good at and encourage it. Our lad is very practical. On occasions when he has had temper tantrums he has been taken off by one of the leaders to do some repairs on the building, his bike, some camping gear. For your lad it might be something else, but find what that thing is and use it when times are tough.

6. As for all kids, plenty of praise when he has done well, especially when he is clearly trying to tackle his own problems. Our last summer camp I gave lots of praise when I saw him walk away from an argument when 6 months before he would have turned round and punched someone.

7. Be honest with him. Tell him what you find hard. Our lad doesn't give many signals in his body language. Most kids you can tell when they are bored or confused or frustrated as they fidget, mutter etc. This lad does nothing until he explodes. We told him clearly that we need to know when he is feeling bored or confused. It took a while but now he has learned to ask questions.

All the above are examples but what will work with your lad may be different as every case is different. Be warned though it wont an easy ride.

Mr Boyce - I am quite shocked that anyone would seek to make any link between homosexuality and peadophiles. To do is a load of ignorant, prejudiced, nonsense.

In February I had a wonderful moment when I present a scout with his Chief Scout's Gold award (it's the highest award in the 10-14 scout section in the UK). It wasn't the first that I had given out but what was unique was that he completely didn't realise he had completed it! He's one of these lads that signs up for everything, if it's happening, he's there. Not because it will tick off part of this badge or that badge but because he just loves being a scout and what we do.

When I gathered them in a horse shoe and said that I had a CSG to give out I even saw him looking around trying to guess who it was, completely unaware that it was him.

A truly wonderful moment, I wish there were more like him.

As others have said the last thing you want to do is get mad, that's exactly what the jokers want. I do use the arm in the air routine to get silence and if indivduals are not quiet (especially if a PL has already told them) they get invited to leave the room and sit out of what ever was meant to happen next.

In more extreme situations I have called parents to get them to collect their child (Only done it 3 times in 15 years!). Once a parent has suffered the embarassment of having to come down to our HQ to collect their child because of their behaviour it's pretty rare for it to ever happen again.

There are more long term measures as well. We have a number of events that the scouts can go on but only where they have completed other things. For example there is a sailing course each spring run at county level but before they can go they have to have certain rope skills. If you can't tie certain knots you wont be going because the instructors don't have time to teach you, and the scouts know it. If they want to do their expedition challenge their navigation and first aid skills have to reach a certain standard. A couple of my scouts recently found that one out the hard way when I refused to let them do it but most listen up when they realise what is on offer.

Garrison Cap - It seems I think that I had misunderstood you!

However my experience of co-ed scouting is that to be honest I think adults are far more stressed about sexual relationships than they need to be. Yes kids are curious, that goes with puberty, but to be honest for the most part they talk about sex an awful lot more than they actually do it. We have rules on camp such as single sex tents, no going into each others tents after dark etc, we trust the scouts to follow those rules and they follow them! We have one couple in the troop (it's actually quite cute!) and they have simply never been a problem

Tampa Turtle - agreed, if there is an underage physical relationship happening then at the very least seeking to discourage it is entirely appropriate. However the implication from Garrison Cap (and do forgive me if I have misunderstood) is that the very fact that a scout in the troop is gay means that you have to be more proactive. I just don't see that that is the case.

Garrison Cap - I am genuinelly interested as to why you think you would need to do that? ie actively stop him from trying to have sex with other scouts. Or put another way, if you were involved in a co-ed youth group of some sort would you feel you had to actively stop heterosexual kids from having sex?