Cambridgeskip

I took the advice and went to see a travel agent today. They found a very good deal to Buffalo price wise but it does mean a change in Chicago (big scary airport to get kids through!) and returns at an unsoicable time and of course a slightly longer drive (about 2 hours drive to our ultimate destination rather than 1 hour from Toronto).

The best they found to Toronto was actually a direct flight with Air Transat at 700. The problem being we're flying at a time when it is school holidays for UK, USA and Canada. The indirect ones I've found on the internet so far all seem to magically acquire extra costs, sometimes with an explanation and sometimes without!

Think I may stick with direct flights.

Thanks for that chaps, I'll do some more snooping around!

In terms of major airport v regional airport is that the bigger airports tend to be more expensive. Similar to Charlotte the next cheapest route is a change in Rekyavic with Iceland Air (I'd find an icelandic scout forum to ask similar questions on but my icelandic is about as sharp as my quantom physics)

A small contingent is 6, 2 leaders and 4 scouts. It's something we are doing on a small scale this time round with a view to doing something bigger in the future.

Hi

I wasn't sure which forum to post this in but I just wanted to pick your brains about airlines in the USA.

The deal is that my troop in the UK has recently discovered a troop with exactly the same name in your friendly neighbour Canada. We've arranged an exchange programme with them for next summer and are currently looking for the cheapest way to get a small contingent from here to Toronto.

A lot of internet searching has so far shown the cheapest routes to generally be via the USA with the cheapest of all being a change in Charlotte Douglas (you will have to forgive me that I had never heard of the place till now) with US Airways.

But it did occur to me that with air travel being so much more part of the culture than in the UK (generally it's quicker to go by train for domestic travel( there must be all kinds of airlines in the USA that don't appear on big travel websites like skyscanner and lastminute etc. Or even websites that I have never heard of.

So can anyone point me towards any good budget airlines in north east USA that may do us a cheap hop over the border to Toronto?

Thanks in advance!

So a few comments from my personal experience.

I have recently despatched one lad with aspergers onto Explorers aged 14 and have had another one recently start. Both display very different personality traits. What has been the same is that we have had very supportive parents from both.

Something to remember is that kids with aspergers need very simple and clear instructions and guidelines which, importantly, you MUST stick to. These not be any different to those laid down fro anyone else, they do not get special treatment just through having a diagnosis. If you lay down rules with clear consequences if they are broken and then fail to enforce those consequences it can actually lead, ironically, to even more confusion and disruptive behaviour from the child involved. Keep it simple.

Difficult in a big troop I know but it is vital that the child understands that when addressing a group that they are included in the group being spoken to. It is frustrating and it may seem like they are being deliberately rude, but they are not. It is simply the case that if you speak to 30 scouts giving instructions, and one of them has aspergers, they can completely fail to understand that they are being spoken to. Take the time to check that they understand what has been said and let them ask questions, no matter how dumb those questions may sound, and make sure their PL knows that they have to do likewise.

Kids with aspergers are often very practical individuals. If you need to get them to calm down then finding them something practical to do while they get themselves together can do the world of good. We would get the older one to help fix a broken stove or lantern or something when he had a moment. It would help him calm down an awful lot quicker than just isolating him. When he had got his self control back we would then turn to the discipline side about what he had done and what the consequences were. Our younger one tends to become even more withdrawn rather than disruptive when he is having problems, were still working on how to get him to perk up when that happens.

I think it is very knee jerk reaction to consider kids with aspergers a threat. Some can lash out more readily than any other teenager, thats true, but it doesnt mean they are more likely to stab or shoot someone.

Of course other members of the troop have to be protected from their excesses and that is where the clear rules come in. Every member of the troop has the same standards expected of them. But every member of the troop, whether they have a diagnosed condition or not, is treated as an individual in terms of how we communicate with them and how we manage them in the immediate aftermath of an incident. The actual consequences though remain the same for everyone.

Its also worth remembering that scouting on its own will not be a treatment for all that kids problems. We/you are just one experience that they have. They have family, school, friends outside of scouting.

SSScout - the vast majority featured are UK scout section age range ie 10-14. There are no cubs featured. There is a glimpse here and there of explorer scouts (14-18 year olds) they are the ones with caramel coloured uniforms. We have a couple attached to the troop as part of the Young Leader scheme (14-17 year olds can serve as what effectively amounts to an apprentice leader).

We don't have Rovers as such. We have Network Scouts for 18-25 year olds. In theory this is a youth section. In practice it functions as more of a social club for younger leaders. 3 of my ASLs (equivalent of ASMs) are in this age group including the female leader in the cooking scenes and the male out of uniform with the catapult.

As for girls, what we find is that we get a certain "type" of girl joins scouts rather than girl guides. While I wouldn't go as far as tom boys they are definately that much more "robust" than those that go to guides. You don't see much pink or make up, they are generally more interest in fire and walking boots! Over all scouts is still male dominated at about 85%. My troop has an above average number of girls, currently about 40%. This is historical as we were coed by choice before it was complusory, hence we have the local reputation as the "girl friendly" troop. Girl Guides though is still going strong!

Qwaze, cheers for pointing that out. We had a similar problem with the last one we posted but I can't recall how we fixed it. I'll go in and play with the settings and see what I come up with.

I've been playing with windows movie maker again and wacked something together of what we got up to during 2012. Enjoy!

Fred, I think you've missed the point.

No one is proposing removing God from the programme. We're talking about an additional version of the Promise, not a replacement.

This is not a political issue, no one has forced this on TSA. TSA has chosen to go this way to reflect its membership and the society in which they live.

As you point out, the scouts themselves deal with this perfectly well day in day out without excluding anyone and they just see the addition of an additional version the Promise as perfectly normal.

Last night was the first scout night since this news story broke. We had an easy going creative night and it gave me a chance to spend some time talking to some of the scouts. I had 4 working with me, a Christian, a Budhist, an Atheist and one who's just not sure. Getting their point of view on this was really quite refreshing.

In short, none of them could understand what the fuss was about. They were actually a bit surprised to learn that religion was any problem in terms of joining anything. They are used to people having different beliefs and are all quite able to discuss theirs without being nasty to each other.

Some times I think scouters could learn an awful lot from the scouts themselves.

Thought I'd weigh in here from across the pond.

First was BP gay? Don't know and don't frankly care. It matters not a jot to me.

As for the original post. Frankly this is not before time. It is clear that atheist members are with us both as youth, openly, and as adults saying the promise with a mental cross of the fingers. All this does is officially acknowledge that. A run of the eyes over Escouts (UK equivalent of this forum) shows that it is largely supported as well.

I look forward to us being entirely inclusive and not to have to try and defend a policy that I find it impossible to defend.

Thought I'd weigh in here from across the pond.

First was BP gay? Don't know and don't frankly care. It matters not a jot to me.

As for the original post. Frankly this is not before time. It is clear that atheist members are with us both as youth, openly, and as adults saying the promise with a mental cross of the fingers. All this does is officially acknowledge that. A run of the eyes over Escouts (UK equivalent of this forum) shows that it is largely supported as well.

I look forward to us being entirely inclusive and not to have to try and defend a policy that I find it impossible to defend.

Do your universities and colleges. Have such things as scout and guide clubs? If not it sounds like they need them. They are a huge success here and help recruit and retain younger leaders. The one in Cambridge essentially has 3 roles. It has a social role for just keeping the scout and girl guide fraternity together, it has a service side, laying on a number of events for the district each year (the annual indient hike for the scout and guide age range is superb) and finally they provide a match making service, placing students who want to be leaders with local groups.

It has been such a success that it was used as the basis for the current scout Network 18-25 age range which again provides a more social context for younger leaders.

But at the same there is a lot to be said for older leaders. While I have 3 ASLs who are students I also have one who is 69, has been at the group since he was a cub and who I would be lost without. His experience, skills and wisdom are invaluable. There is not a single issue I've had to deal with that he's not seen and dealt with in the past. And what's more the scouts adore him!

It's interesting watching this thread unfold as it shines a light on different scouting cultures around the world. The impression I have of scouting in the USA is that it is very family orientated with a big emphasis on parents leading the programme before moving on in time.

At the other end of this spectrum are countries like Hungary. In 2005 I took a group of scouts to the European Jamboree and we became quite friendly with a Hungarian unit. The leader in charge of them was just 19 and his assistants were of a similar age. This struck me a startlingly young to be running an international trip. I learned from him though that in Hungary they take the idea of "youth lead" to a whole new extreme. Unless you are a district commissioner or similar you are expected to retire as a leader at the age of 30, their argument being that it allows younger leaders to come through.

The UK is somewhere in between. We have parent leaders some of whom "retire" when their children leave, some of whom don't but it is more common for parents to take more supporting roles like group chair or treasurer. We also though encourage explorer scouts to take part in the young leader scheme so that when they turn 18 they become a full on adult leader (which is how I came through, I have no children yet but have racked up 16 years service!)

I don't think any particular culture is better than another, I just find it fascinating how it varies across the world.

I don't know the full detail of national affiliations to WOSM but I suspect that a lot of assets would become the property of WOSM and that somebody somewhere would be asked to establish a WOSM affiliated scout body.

Sounds like you are trying to move to the "group" system like we have in the UK.

It has it's advantages but I don't think it provides answers to the bigger problems that many of you refer to on here.

What it can do is provide additional support for adults. I am the equivalent of SM but above me I have a Group Scout Leader who can take up slack on admin and management issues. Which is great. But the other side of that coin is that either you have the resource to provide that support or you don't. If you do all this would do is formalise the arrangement. If you don't then it won't produce that resource.

On recruitment it will again just formalise arrangements, if you have a cub pack or packs that naturally feed into a troop and you have a good relationship with them for recruiting new scouts then it just ties you in more formally with them. Simply putting you together will not magically make SMs or PLs go and meet the older cubs and actively recruit them. It may provide an obvious place to go if you are new to things.

Where I think it does help is providing parents with an obvious and foreseeable structure in terms of where they will go and who their leaders will be.

From what I have read of your system cubs is far far to complex. It's the only country I have ever seen that has it divided up into sub age ranges. Move into one cub age range and it seems to me that you will free up an awful lot adult resource.

Exactly what Beavah said. There is a whole world of difference between being able to build a fire ready to light and then actually lighting it and then subsequently keeping control of it.

Similar to Joebob when I was a venture scout my unit were asked to run a camp fire for a group of Beaver Scouts (6 and 7 year olds this side of the pond). What we created was a blazing inferno. Any other time this would have been fine (remember in the UK we are rumoured to have 197 words for rain, nothing is EVER dry!) but we were in the middle of an unusually hot and dry period. The camp site we were on promptly lost half an acre of grass land before we got it back under control. Harsh lesson learn and yours truly along with half a dozen others got the balling out of our lives.

Important to learn these things young.

I am mildly dyslexic and still can't distinguish between lose and loose even after your post. Sorry! (Can handle you're and your though, it's multiple vowels that really give me a problem)

I really don't think there is a hard and fast here. It will depend on what they've done, it will depend on the circumstances in which they did it, it will depend on who exactly did it.

I have in the past confronted people on the spot. I've also waiting for a quoet moment to calmly discuss it, I've reported it upwards. It's horses for courses in my opinion.

Best of luck to everyone your side of the pond about to get hit by this.

My SPL is currently in NYC on holiday with her family. Her facebook status suggests she's a wee bit nervous about this. Just praying that she comes home with a few yarns to tell round the camp fire and nothing worse :s

NJcubscouter - political ads in the UK can be pretty nauseating as well but there are also heavy restrictions on how many they can broadcast and how long they are hence you can avoid them if you want to.

Prime Ministers question time is, to be honest, just a bit of a circus and doesn't really do much justice to parliamentary democracy. Our politicians can be utterly vile and obnoxious when they want, and that goes for all the parties. Equally though I have seen examples, particularly from backbenchers, of outstanding work, ensuring that important issues are properly debated in the house.

The recent issues surrounding the Hillsborough disaster in 1989 (has that had any coverage in the USA?) were helped to a conclusion no end by the tireless work of a number of politicians on all sides/

I haven;t read this entire thread. There's so much bickering I frankly can't be bothered.

Suffice to say though that the UK Scout Association has a PR disaster on its hands with this one.

In terms of the official line see Moogie's post above this, sets it out pretty clearly. What appears to have happened is that the kids flatly refused to make the promise.

What's worth adding is that this is something that the TSA has been tip toeing around for sometime. Essentially WOSM rules say you have to have a religious promise. TSA has trodden a very fine a line in terms of trying to bend the rules. Moogie's post refers to members and associate members. I have a couple of ASLs (like ASMs) and 3 troop assistants. The latter are associate members due to a lack of religious belief. But there is no way you can tell the difference. They were the uniform, do everything the ASMs do, just don't make the promise.

The world is changing and I think push may soon come to shove either WOSM having to change its rules or someone like TSA or another western European country going openly against them.

It's difficult to put across just how shocking this case is to the British public.

Jimmy Saville himself was always seen as a classic British excentric and national treasure. His charity work was legendary, the tv show Jim'll fix it was iconic, (I wrote into it myself as a kid, desperate to drive a train, and the episode where a group of cub scouts had lunch on a rollercoaster is one of the most repeated bits of tv ever) everyone knew he was from age 8 to 80. His career was seemingly endless.

And now this. That someone so public was getting away with it for so long is truly chilling.

And then there is the BBC.

The BBC is probably the most trusted media organisation in the country. It has a specific remit to be politically neutral. It doesn't carry commercials (it is funded by a license fee). It is up there with the royal family in terms of respect and affection from the public.

And then to find that all this was going on its premises? Again chilling.

And of course there is the newsnight issue.

If you aren't aware of the full context of this Newsnight is a current affairs programme on the BBC. It appears that they were ready to run this story last year and then mysteriously dropped it. No one has yet come up with a reasonable reason as to why. Something here absolutely stinks and we MUST get to the bottom of it.

"Once you deceide to ignore that rule, where do you stop? Is then 20 Merit badges enough for eagle, or 12 nights of camping for OA? "

NDL - i think the difference here is that there is a clear and obvious reason for that rule. Eagle Scout is designed to be the highest award that BSA can give a youth member. It naturally requires high standards. Perhaps some folks think it should be changed but ultimately there is a reasoning behind it that everyone can see.

With regard to homosexuality there is no clear reasoning. Yes you can point to passages from the Old Testament but BSA is not an organisation just for those from Abrahamic faiths. There is no evidence, despite the views of some ignorant morons to the contrary, of it being linked to peadophilia, it is not a choice, homosexuals are no more or less promiscuose than those who are straight. There is no reasonable explanation for the existance of that rule that stands up to any kind of scutiny.

So when you have rules that have no reasoning that stands up to any kind of scrutiny then is it any wonder that significant numbers rebel against it?

At work I am expected to log every email I receive on a spreadsheet and log when I've dealt with it. Do I? No. It's an absurd rule with no reasoning behind it so I ignore it. Does my manager care? No. Does his manager? No. In the mean time I go about getting the job done.

"If the CO accepts them, if the BSA accepts them, then who am I to go against the actual authorities?"

As an outsider looking in this made me chuckle as it reminded me of a fundamental difference between the British (and indeed most of Europe) and Americans. We have a huge disdain for authority. We really do. We'll listen politely, we'll sign up to whatever nonsense they put in front of us just to get them out the door and then we'll ignore them completely. The French are even better at it than we are (though few brits will admit it). For a country who's constitution is built on no individual having too much power I find it amazing that Americans just don't do "passive aggresive". It's ana amazing way of getting things changed.

Seattle

Some questions for you.

1. Define "Natural law". I can find you US federal law, state law of the various US states, UK law, laws of various religions all written down because they are laws created by various groups of people to givern the way their communities live. So what is natural law? I am confused.

2. If use of genitals to procreate is approved and not involving them are not does that mean that the following are "disaproved" of

a. Sexual relations between a married heterosexual couple using contraception?

b. Sexual reltions between a married heterosexual couple where the woman is either experiencing the menopause or is post menopausal?

c. Sexual relations between married heterosexual couple where one or the other is knowingly infertile?

d. Sexual relations between a married heterosexual couple during pregnancy?

If not then why not?

3. Do you accept that an orientation towards theft or violence is harmful to others in the community? In what way are "exotic sexual practices" between consenting adults in their own home harmful to the community?

Frankly I could fill a thesis with questions for you but I'll leave it at that for now.

When I ran cubs I used to read semi regularly and generally stuck to the Jungle Book. There are some fantastic stories in there, not just the Mowgli stories but many of the others as well. The tale of Rikki Tikki Tavi went down particularly well. It generally worked best when the kids were tired round the fire late in the evening. I used to get them to close their eyes and forget that they were in leafy, cool southern England but it was over a hundred years ago, they are in India, it's hot, it's humid and somewhere out there a wolf is walking through the trees....

I've never tried it with scouts though. My thought has always been that it wouldn't really work for that age group but I would be interested to hear, indeed would be pleased to hear, from someone that could prove me wrong.