Troop75Eagle
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Posts posted by Troop75Eagle
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2 hours ago, elitts said:
Crime victims get plenty of sympathy, but they aren't entitled to revenge, which is usually where ideas of this nature tend to head. But the numbers show that one way or the other, something is drastically wrong with the way our legal system works.
The facts show that the US incarcerates more people per capita than any other country in the world. And not just by a little bit, it's an astonishing difference. The only other country that comes close is Russia and our incarceration rate is 20% higher than theirs. If you only look at Western countries, the next highest is Poland and we are 213% higher than them. Of countries we actually tend to think of ourselves as being similar to, the closest is the UK and our rate is 398% higher than them.
So given that data, we have to conclude one of a few things must be true.
- Something about the US leads to criminality at drastically higher rates than everywhere else in the world;
- The US is just amazingly better at arresting and convicting criminals than everyone else in the world;
- The US puts more people in jail for longer periods of time than everyone else in the world.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/incarceration-rates-by-country
https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2020.html
This attitude doesn't seem very Christian. Not much in the way of mercy or forgiveness. 18 years in prison for stealing a wallet while holding a stick even though no violence was used?
It sounds like you'd be happier in a more Muslim country. Your ideals are right in line with some of the more extremist Islamic views on punishment.
There is an undeniable desire for retribution over rehabilitation and reintegration in this country. The idea of correcting bad behavior and having people pay their debt and move in really doesn’t work so well. Scouts tended (Past tense deliberate ) to try to reinforce ethical, productive and socially cohesive attitudes and behaviors. I experienced this and believe in it as a traditional tool for achieving this goal. I never witnessed or heard of the socio-political agendas being forced as they are today.
Scouts does not hold a monopoly on these sorts of tools and never has. If so, that is a sad state of affairs and makes an appalling statement about the drive, self reliance, introspection and creativity of most of the US population that couldn’t find other alternatives.
The religious institutions that choose affiliate with scouts bear a great deal of elective responsibility in moral and ethical guidance as do the parents who raise their children. Scouts has been an outlet to positively channel those common objectives under a framework that reflects patriotism and growth while having a primary focus in common activities.
scouts, however, has not been in the business of studying crime and punishment outside the Citizenship merit badges (at least that’s my experience). Scouts is merely a format that one chooses to join that has traditions, activities and objectives of a particular nature. Issues of retribution, proportionality, Fairness in application of law and reconstructing society have not been a part of that.
leadership, personal responsibility, development within the context of stated beliefs, community involvement and a patriotic mindset definitely have been at the heart of its mission. The scouts has been a unique tool that has thrived because of those specific attributes. Teaching kids about crime and punishment and extensive social problems is quickly rendering a venerable institution into nothing but a great culture torn to shreds with no identity. It will be a rump dead idea that no one will agree upon and drive people away. It will be forcibly remade into a club that appeals to a few that will claim victory but it will be a pyrrhic one. Such are the changes of time, great ideas and practices that have an overwhelmingly positive impact are swept away by inferiority complexes, envy and a refusal to agree to abide by the rules of an established system. This is one reason resentment and anger exist. If each person can’t change the rules of the system then tear it apart rather than establish a new one. Social destruction seems the desire rather than innovation.
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1 hour ago, TAHAWK said:
EVANS v. ABNEY is precedent but immaterial to the issue being discussed. The restriction created by the settlor in that case - use of the property by Whites only - was held unenforceable under federal law, causing the trust to fail under Georgia state law. The trust having failed, the property reverted to the heirs of the settlor of the trust, the odious Senator Bacon, as a matter of Georgia law.
That is true, but I was responding to the idea of conditions in a previous comment demonstrating where such things have precedent. The particulars of this are certainly not the same, but the idea of having to give back a gift is not new, even when times and sentiments change.
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16 minutes ago, awanatech said:
My two cents: Once a gift is given, it is the recipients to do with as they please. If it was a conditional use agreement, where they can use the property/ building as long as it stays named after her, then that is a different situation.
EVANS v. ABNEY(1970) Gives you a basis. Don’t know how it would fly today but that is a precedent I learned in law school.
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10 hours ago, TAHAWK said:
I again note that the criminal pleaded guilty to nine counts of armed robbery and was sentenced for only five of those felonies and for none of the related felonies, such as nine counts of felonious assault. So despite his guilty plea, he got off totally on more felonies than those for which he was sentenced. I have no idea what "popular opinion" expected would be the result.
in Ohio, the present Governor was previously Attorney General, elected in part on a campaign promise to test all the rape kits that had accumulated in the years since rape kits were kept. That was done.
“Everybody matters or nobody matters.” ― Harry Bosch
I agree with you completely. The last part of my statement that you highlighted is the real thrust of what I was saying. Ole bargains are certainly a part of the system. My point is to more recent cases in this whole social upheaval regarding police and protests. A grand jury convenes, files no charges against police in Ferguson, Mo. The grand jury and Us dept of justice clear the officer. No justice. How? The process worked and was even reviewed by feds-extraordinary by itself. The officer was subject to the processes and laws of the justice system and not charged. Now the public may be upset with the result, that is fair. The public, or parts of it, may look at parts of the evidence and disregard other parts to claim ‘no justice’, the public may bitterly disagree with each other on how the presented evidence is to be judged, but that is irrelevant. The officers were subject to and went through the justice system. In short, justice was rendered. It’s been this way several times in recent years.
Among the howls and screams in recent years about these cases leading up to BLM and Floyd, justice was done. It was very publicity watched, hyper reviewed and debated. But it’s become apparent to me that justice seems to mean that the public outcry over police cases isn’t really about an interest in justice as its properly meant. It’s more about taking a video and expecting an outcome to satisfy impressions and personal judgements. The idea of a trial is almost an inconvenience to the public that seems to have no interest in the rule of law as a consistent barrier to anarchy and chaos. The reason the process is set up is to have cooler heads review the evidence in full at the grand jury level, if applicable...move to trial. But the idea that the grand jury or trial jury could decide anything other than what is desired and expected is an anathema to segments of society. At a minimum, they should simply stop abusing the word as a substitute for retribution through summary justice.
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If people looked at all culture of all kinds throughout history and banned it on the issue of the day, we would have nothing left. Humans are sight oriented and use that and every sense to distinguish friend from foe, who one likes and doesn’t like, who deserves derision for conduct, Humor, satire, music and everything else. There is no guarantee against hurt feelings. There is no guarantee or right to be liked, desired, appreciated, respected, or even tolerated by others in a human level. Human being seem to increasingly forget its fun to laugh at differences, draw fascination and intrigue from differences, and not be forced to have ideas and public expressions purged because one group doesn’t like having their feelings hurt.
There are changing levels of acceptance over time but the idea that past cultures and ideas should somehow be purged and wiped out because it no longer fits does a terrible disservice to those who fought to live, love, laugh and experience life on their own terms over time. It’s an attempt to erase history. That is precisely what it is. Take it out of the public view, libraries, archives, etc., make it taboo, and hope it vanishes. The Nazis, Communists, Red Revolution and religious movements have done a marvelous job of this. It’s no wonder people push back.
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7 minutes ago, David CO said:
I don't think we need harsher sentencing. 18 year sounds just about right for armed robbery. The problem isn't with the sentencing. The problem is with what happens after the sentencing. This story is a good example.
Sympathy with the victim would require the convicted felon (his lawyers, his advocates, and everyone else who is trying to spring him from jail) to have no contact whatsoever with the victim. No contact at all. It is bad enough that the victims have to relive the experience for several years while the trial is going on. They shouldn't have to go through it again 10 years later when the criminal is seeking a reduction in sentence.
Programs like this not only allow the perpetrator to contact the victims, they encourage and incentivize it. Programs like the one in this story should be illegal.
I would like to suggest that more sympathy to the victim needs to start with, as a glaring example, of actually following through with justice in the correct sense of the word. There have been many cases of investigative police jurisdictions not processing thousands of rape kits, but letting them simply accumulate. Justice, properly defined, would entail having the processes established followed so that the legal process could move on. Whatever the reason: gross negligence, incompetence, depraved indifference, lack of staffing or even vindictiveness...this is not justice.’ As it is commonly used, ‘no justice’ seems to imply that the justice system is supposed to have a foregone conclusion with the justice system as only a rubber stamp for popular opinion.
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1 hour ago, David CO said:
I gave you an up-vote for using an Earth Science term. Unfortunately, justice for victims is being pushed under like an oceanic plate in a subduction zone.
Yes. I agree. With choice of terms, I wanted to think of something that was so powerful that one couldn’t easily find an exception. Thanks for the upvote.
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There is a tug of war among concepts, crime/punishment/self control/self improvement/retribution/ redemption. All have their place.
When it comes to personal crime, especially violent crime, society sort of takes a back seat insofar as reconciliation between perpetrator and victim (on an emotional level). Wergild or it’s modern equivalent in civil damages doesn’t heal the lasting trauma. My hat is off to the young man who was able to reconcile to himself the crime and move on. In this case, they both seem to have benefitted.
Insofar as social justice is concerned, crime has everything to do with it. The two are joined at the hip tighter than a grating tectonic plates. Social justice and social virtues are in conflict as ideas and these give rise to all pets of problems and areas directly related to ideas of social justice and injustice. The social contract is an old concept that I think has great merit. Many parts of that idea can and should be debated. I have been unable find a consistent and workable definition of ‘racial injustice’ as a stand-alone phrase. To be sure, I see ‘racial inequality’, ‘systemic oppression’, ‘direct and indirect discrimination’ and so forth.
Words represent concepts, concepts determine perceptions, that respond to the actions and attitudes of other which get translated into yet more actions. The idea of justice is badly misused. So tossing about words in expectation that everyone who is intelligent and reasonable will agree upon the definition is not a good approach. Give terms clarity in definition do at least people can agree and debate the same idea at the outset. Otherwise, people talk past one another.
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Dear and reason don’t go together for the average person. Shaken violently out of normal habit, predictability and expectation of social interaction...reason is swept away. Even soldiers find this hard to overcome. I did riot training with my MP unit years ago. We were all friends. When you get a mob in front of you shrieking and pulling at sticks and shield, people become an enemy. People got hurt. How much more do so when an isolated person confronted with a pack or mob of people who do not appear to have your best interests and health in mind.
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On 6/22/2020 at 2:34 PM, Eagle1993 said:
Capital Hill Occupied Protest. Not sure if it also means CHOP heads of their enemies and how many heads they have actually literally chopped off … you may have more info about that. I have no idea why Seattle doesn't shut that
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2 minutes ago, TAHAWK said:
Any government employee who is proven to have violated civil rights should be removed from his or her government position and prosecuted. So cops should be fired and prosecuted if they violate someone's civil rights - when it is legally established that they are guilty of such actions = due process.
The civil rights protected include the right to peacefully protest AND the right to be protected from criminal acts when the police have knowledge of those acts.
When government, for reasons of hope for political gain, sloth, or incompetence allows mobs to riot, loot, injure and kill, it is time to change the government leaders by any means necessary and to invoke the natural right of self-defense.
106 shot, including slain 3-year-old boy, in violent Chicago Father’s Day weekend.
You are correct in what you say. But, When the protesters resort to violence, properties ruin livelihoods where losses are not covered by insurance, and begin to assault people...and the government fails to respond...the people are compelled to protect themselves. This is one reason states have begun confirming and expanding castle doctrines along with stand your ground. As I say , if governments are not oppressing but are CONSTRAINED from acting because of political ramifications, then the prospects are odious indeed.
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On 6/22/2020 at 2:34 PM, Eagle1993 said:
Capital Hill Occupied Protest. Not sure if it also means CHOP heads of their enemies and how many heads they have actually literally chopped off … you may have more info about that. I have no idea why Seattle doesn't shut that
I guess people are now seeing the Wisconsin news about rioters roughing up and beating the legislator. If these things accelerate or persist, there will be a reaction that could be bad, very bad. The more violence, destruction and cultural purging that occurs, the greater the already growing risk of a group and their cause being discredited. The more these acts erode rule of law, the less indulgent the public will be. Protesters are sowing the seeds of their own destruction.
it might be alleged by protesters that the feeling is that there is nothing to lose, they are losing lives. That may be true in a small statistical number of cases and nothing is diminished regarding need for some change. But in thinking there is nothing to lose , the error of that reasoning is a grave one.
Considering the accelerating popularity of stand your ground laws and vilification of police, and considering property losses by business owners from civil disturbances, and considering that now law makers are being attacked, Storm clouds are building. This could not only result in systemic tragedies, but a clampdown of civil rights. Our well armed and polarized society could well flare up in places that will make the 60’s pale in comparison.
The United States does not need to become a parish state and cede positive influence to true authoritarian states. We are resilient and have institutions of govt that are better than most. Our youth will find many great lessons for civics, racial injustice and change. But if protestors (and counter protesters) are not careful, youth will take home a lot of horrifying memories beyond social justice.
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That is certainly true, but that’s not the point is it. The point is the content, form and substance combined how best to administer development. To read your rather terse answer, it would seem you find the entire idea absurd and beyond the need to review or subject to thoughtful debate. Indeed, many on the forum would appear to regard any approach to this topic as a overt or clandestine attack on the concept of diversity. It comes across as people being threatened entirely by some boogeyman of a conservative backlash and subversive activity. I was unaware that scouts had morphed into a ‘as your told and ask no questions’ mentality. Indeed, there is need for a merit badge of how to follow the party line and not voice ones thought. Do as your required or get out. Adults do as your told or get out. Hardly a recipe for diversity, inclusiveness or growth. But each is entitled to an opinion. It’s simply helpful to stay on topic and fully develop contrary or dissenting viewpoints.
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No indeed, they do not have to take them. All the citizen ship and community merit badges they do. There is a lot of overlap in form and content there which is why I mentioned them. It’s surprising to me the electives are there. More does not always mean better. Redundancy in merit badges may well warrant re-examination.
there is a long history of exactly that action for such purposes. There is nothing wrong with review, streamlining and consolidation.
But adding another required merit badge on top of that extensively does many of the same things is, in my opinion, a waste of efficient and opportunity that has, at best, been poorly thought out.
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I object to what I perceive as redundancy in 5 merit badges. If it turns out that American Heritage and American Culture can be absorbed and or consolidated then yes. I object to what I perceive as a heavy handed approach if not over kill to many of the same required actions of scouts in the same areas.
it gets to a point where it looks like academic requirements for a diploma with pointless redundancy. So to be consistent, yes. The name is not as important as what the required content and engagement steps among them is.
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I also want to add that I am not finding fault in the objectives of what is trying to be achieved. Nor do I in any way mean to take away from what you are saying about it and likewise hold yo be true. Both are good.
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I hear what your saying and am interested in your training. After 33 years,?i don’t have the most up to date. I may tedpond more fully later for a set per understanding. As to your last statement, love your neighbor as yourself usually covers this. Scouts invites all. But insofar as diversity and inclusion not being political, I disagree. Anytime you have forced instruction on community, cultural and demographic differences, it becomes political. Anytime you have compulsory requirements that involve exposure to media And it’s inevitable diversity of social ills, solutions and differences, it becomes political. Suggesting acts of kindness is a a solution. One would have no need to suggest kindness if there were not problems of various kinds that were conflicting. Every aspect of the afore mentioned merit badges is up to their necks in political involvement and actually requires the scouts participate. Whatever the end goal of the merit badges, they are political.
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I have a general question.
Scouts has Citizenship in the community, nation and world
Communications
American Heritage
American Culture
4 of these are required for Eagle. Perusing the content, there is overlap in many. All engage in culture, past, present and future in a wide range of ways.
I am at great pains to comprehend the need for yet another required merit badge that deals with precisely the same areas of concern. I am assuming, which given the facts seems only correct, that requiring a new merit badge of diversity, there will be little need for many of these anymore. Indeed, American Heritage and Culture seem superfluous.
If the BSA is dead set on constantly beating all these same areas of interest into young people, there is a problem. This set of facts and apparent intent would lead one to believe that young people are either too stubborn or too stupid to develop into responsible, open-minded citizens. This begins to take on the theme of a revamped political indoctrination organization. There are plenty of examples of this in history around the world.
I would invite any reader to review the required and non-required merit badges I just listed and reasonably and comprehensively suggest how this is not the case. I would like to hear honest and thoughtful analysis of how a diversity required merit badge adds to the existing ones and why there would not be continued over coverage. My suspicion is that anyone would be hard pressed to argue the point in an honest way.
This thread invites discussion, not divisiveness. It’s shocking to me that I’d even have to qualify it as such.
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46 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:
Did they just put up the Lenin status, or are you talking about this one (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Lenin_(Seattle)) that was put up in the mid 1990s.
I had to look it up, but it appears CHOP stands for Capital Hill Occupied Protest. Not sure if it also means CHOP heads of their enemies and how many heads they have actually literally chopped off … you may have more info about that. I have no idea why Seattle doesn't shut that down … seems like it has gotten completely out of control.
I’ve recently, (last year) read bizarre mindsets in Seattle. Some of the assertions are that the legislature and urban population is so out of control that part of the state wanted to break away and merge with Idaho. It’s probably old news just like north, central and south California or Texas. The out of control part comes from the progressive agenda of the legislature and social initiatives. I apologize for not being able to find the article I read on these left of left initiatives but I wasn’t anticipating needing a citation in June 2020.
progressive ideas are fine and good. But sometimes there seem to be no adults around. All you seem to hear are jubilant big kids throwing tax payer money at idea after idea, passing changes in regulations and laws without really even trying to understand the complex short, medium and long term impacts. All you hear is ‘Whoeeee!! This looks fun! Let’s try it too!!!’
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10 minutes ago, cocomax said:
They are putting up statues of Vladimir Lenin.
CHAZ changed their name to CHOP to reflect their desire to start CHOPing off the heads of their enemies.
That’s all? Whew! At first I thought you were going to say They were putting up statues of Thomas Payne, John Stuart Mill, Voltaire or some of those other crazy thinkers from the Age of Enlightenment and reason. Then where would we be!
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8 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:
Not that your overall point isn't valid, but to be clear this quote has often been attributed to Abraham Lincoln but it was never actually said by him. Robert Ingersoll said it about Lincoln.
I realized that there is always question about authenticity or origins. Even if it was a fictional construct, all quotes spring from the mind and carry their own weight. That was my objective. Same dispute arose of the quote “There is a sucker born every minute.” I’d heard it was Barnum, which would be appropriate, but it may not be so. As long as quotes survive, their effect is what matters.
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3 hours ago, SSScout said:
""Show mw what a man makes with his hands that I may know his heart" = Amish adage =
We are what we do, or don't do.
No, I am NOT going to mention a fictional bi-pedal being......
Couple of other quotes can go with that..
Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a men's character, give him power -A. Lincoln
and from recent popular culture:
Give us common folk one taste of power, we're like the lion who tasted man. Nothing is ever so sweet again-from Game of thrones.
As I understand it, these quotes, especially the latter,?is why we have the institutions we have. The French Revolution, the great terror and fear of the mob were foremost on our founders minds. This is one reason all these upheavals and casting down of the men who created the nation is so distressing. The people doing it apparently are do tunnel visioned and hell bent on scouring any validity of the past that there is no thought given or regarded to what the Reasonable alternatives were then, let alone the future.
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I’d forgotten that clip but remember the line. When I first saw the movie I was taken with it but never really thought it had much widespread application. I’ve read a lot about wars, atrocities, cultural and human genocides but always figured they were perpetrators and those swept along. I assumed all these had variations on a theme with a mix of criminal purpose, revenge, entitlement or some other similar human emotion and desire. I figured there were layers created to evade responsibility by euphemism, analogy, suggestion or some unspoken communal awareness. It’s only recently, and in this country, that I have begun to realize That there are indeed a number of people whose only desire is ‘watching the world burn’. I figured anarchists wanted change to something else and that while the change was deliberately extreme, it was to a new form and shape. Instead, it seems that there are simply people that are disinhibited and devoid of purpose except deconstruction and disorder. Their love, if it can be regarded as such, is simply to destroy. So when Washington and Jefferson are torn down, next it’s whoever the replacements are. In a way, they act as anti-matter.
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22 minutes ago, TAHAWK said:
The nature of "virtue signaling" is hypocrisy.
Not sure about virtue signaling...
im familiar with idealized virtues from antiquity and then knightly virtues
- Love God
- Love your neighbour
- Give alms to the poor
- Entertain strangers
- Visit the sick
- Be merciful to prisoners
- Do ill to no man, nor consent unto such
- Forgive as ye hope to be forgiven
- Redeem the captive
- Help the oppressed
- Defend the cause of the widow and orphan
- Render righteous judgement
- Do not consent to any wrong
- Persevere not in wrath
- Shun excess in eating and drinking
- Be humble and kind
- Serve your liege lord faithfully
- Do not steal
- Do not perjure yourself, nor let others do so
- Envy, hatred and violence separate men from the Kingdom of God
- Defend the Church and promote her cause.
Some of these need to be updated, with removals and additions but in principle they can be good personal benchmarks. If signally means public display, then maybe that warrants caution. Silent personal unostentatious practice is probably wiser.
Civil Protest, Policing, Moving Forward
in Issues & Politics
Posted
In TN we had a penal farm where prisoners actually grew food and worked. The unions put a stop to this as you relate. Unfair competition of state v private sector. There are some changes where non violent offenders learn about horses and work with them. There are other programs that help non violent women reunite with family and get help and aid to get meaningful work. More often it would seem that the attitude is, ‘well jimmy, you’re free now, hope you do well.’ And that’s it.
i would say there is definitely a public interest in reintegrating Non violent people who’ve done time. Marketable Skills and trades. Social acceptance and trust is a different issue altogether so having the ability to be a sole proprietor might be a way forward.? Violent offenders and sex offenders are a different issue. I have no useful ideas on that considering the bar for trust would be very high when competing against those without the baggage. These sorts of social issues would serve as cautionary tales against misbehavior...good ones at that. My troop went to police depot to learn what PD did, had police come as part of anti-drug lecture and so forth. That was in the 80’s. These put teeth in the “physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight” part of the oath. Equipping the scouts with universal tools for citizenship, ethical and moral behavior as protective measures is a good thing. The parents and their respective belief systems fill in the gaps. But it seems that is no longer allowed. Dictates and fiats from social forces through national has supplanted that entirely.